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[Boltgun]

It's not such of what is shown than how it is shown. It works for the mother of everything chainmail bikini, Red Sonja, when paired with Conan, her male counterpart, they look coherent. They both kick ass and take names and you see her the character and not the bikini.

Of course that depend of the writer and the artist, it is easy to see if the story will be respectful of the character or not.

[Neonivek]

It's not such of what is shown than how it is shown. It works for the mother of everything chainmail bikini, Red Sonja, when paired with Conan, her male counterpart, they look coherent. They both kick ass and take names and you see her the character and not the bikini.

Of course that depend of the writer and the artist, it is easy to see if the story will be respectful of the character or not.

No you are right, the chainmail bikini isn't a no in all situations.

Red Sonja looks perfectly in costume for her universe where heroes just seem to be allergic to clothing. Her armor not really meant to be armor, but then again Neither was Conan's Fur Thong or his Circlet really meant to protect his head. It helps also that even though she was attractive, the movie was more focused on her as a character.

Heck Wonder Woman's costume (not her current one mind you) has been called both sexist and feminist... though in her case it is a one piece corset.

Xena looks both awesome and appropriate. Though I am biased because I absolutely Adore Xena.

But that is sort of the thing...

Anna from Tekken for example is a Femme Fatale character who clearly uses sex and her body to get her own way and her clothing and style reflect this. I have no issue with her because she is in a game full of great female characters that are all over the chart. (Tekken has issues with female representation, but Anna Wong isn't one of them).

While Soul Calibur slowly increased the sexiness of all its protagonists and is the source of what is known as "Sophitia Syndrome" because Sophitia's breast size actually increased with every installment... and features women with breasts of REALLY fantastical sizes (Dear Goodness Taki, you must have serious back problems being over 6 feet tall with giant breasts that look like someone shoved balloons down your shirt)... Yet the only character who even slightly justified her appearance was Ivy, sort of her story doesn't really seem to shed any light as to where she developed a fondness of dominatrix gear and whips, and MAYBE Taki, though her story doesn't suggest she does any femme fatale kills.

It is why there are a few rules of thumbs I make about a character when it comes to them and their sexuality
1) Is this character meant to be sexy?: For example is this a shy demure female character who wears nothing but a thong? or is this Bayonetta who is meant to be an over the top sexual female character?
2) Is this character more then just sex?: Does the character have depth or are they beholden to it?
3) Does the character's sexiness take anything away from their representation?: Does the way they are presented for sexiness purposes make them seem less competent or less part of the setting?
4) Does the game treat the character like Eyecandy?: This can actually be a huge one and honestly you can get away with a female character being stunningly sexy, even to the point of character contradiction, so long as the game is focused more on them as a character then them as eye candy. I call this the Lara Croft Effect or the Tifa Effect (Tifa being the one that has faired better in the popular consciousness). This involves the Camera a lot!

[smeeprocket]

I'm playing Planet Side 2 right now, and I like the portrayal of women because there's not much of a difference.

However the default voice sounds like a 12 year old girl in an anime.

I spent some Station Cash I had left over from playing EQ to get a better voice.

Which is probably exactly what they want people to do.

Well played, Sony, well played.

[Caz]

I didn't get into until way way later though, because the marketing execs went out of their way to exclude women when advertising the stuff.

How does that work? Any advertisement I've seen for a videogame is usually some gameplay paired with a theatrical trailer. Still never saw one end with "omg no girls!" What exactly turned you off here?

[Caz]

Xena looks both awesome and appropriate. Though I am biased because I absolutely Adore Xena.

I dunno why Xena's costumes never seemed inappropriate to me even though they're revealing and virtually useless for combat. Maybe it's the barbarian thing? She's too badass to be hit in combat. Also pretty much everyone else in that show was dressed in a similar way, so it wasn't really just 'boobs lol'.

Xena did have a lot of outfits, though.

Spoiler: Today is pirate-themed. (click to show/hide)

[smeeprocket]

I didn't get into until way way later though, because the marketing execs went out of their way to exclude women when advertising the stuff.

How does that work? Any advertisement I've seen for a videogame is usually some gameplay paired with a theatrical trailer. Still never saw one end with "omg no girls!" What exactly turned you off here?

It's hard to explain. Because you don't see females in the commercials or as characters to play (I don't think you could play a female in vs mode but don't quote me) and because representation in FPSs was (and still is) all male for all or almost all of them, it just didn't do it for me.

It's not that I haven't played games targeted at males, I absolutely have. Nintendo marketed towards mostly males, though I think it was... a -little- more inclusive than other systems, but I can't be sure, that was a long time ago. Now days they market towards everyone it seems like,which is good.

The only reason I started PVPing was because I played a MUD that was focused around pvp. I was on the bad side. The good side had rezzes on tap, but when we died we had to suck up the death and lose a bunch of exp. I decided to sign up as an assassin (allowing everyone to kill me without getting in trouble, the whole kills system required a degree in law the rules were so extensive.)

I got so used to losing huge chunks of exp that whenever I play any pvp game now, it doesn't phase me to die, because it seems like there usually isn't a downside other than the score.

When Borderlands came out I decided to try it out, and it is a really good starter FPS. I played Lillith and that kind of turned me off to the first one though, because I didn't like the class. But the female character being an option made the game seem more accessible.

As a gamer female, I spend a lot of time feeling alienated from the group as a whole. The environment generally makes one feel like they are not welcome. That we should be playing Candy Crush Saga or something, as Loud Whispers mentioned as if that was an acceptable selection for female gamers. Our games are all pink and about shopping, and the gaming populace at large doesn't want to let us into the boy's club of all the actual games out there. And they will make this very clear when given the chance.

[Caz]

It's hard to explain. Because you don't see females in the commercials or as characters to play (I don't think you could play a female in vs mode but don't quote me) and because representation in FPSs was (and still is) all male for all or almost all of them, it just didn't do it for me.

It's not that I haven't played games targeted at males, I absolutely have. Nintendo marketed towards mostly males, though I think it was... a -little- more inclusive than other systems, but I can't be sure, that was a long time ago. Now days they market towards everyone it seems like,which is good.

The only reason I started PVPing was because I played a MUD that was focused around pvp. I was on the bad side. The good side had rezzes on tap, but when we died we had to suck up the death and lose a bunch of exp. I decided to sign up as an assassin (allowing everyone to kill me without getting in trouble, the whole kills system required a degree in law the rules were so extensive.)

I got so used to losing huge chunks of exp that whenever I play any pvp game now, it doesn't phase me to die, because it seems like there usually isn't a downside other than the score.

When Borderlands came out I decided to try it out, and it is a really good starter FPS. I played Lillith and that kind of turned me off to the first one though, because I didn't like the class. But the female character being an option made the game seem more accessible.

As a gamer female, I spend a lot of time feeling alienated from the group as a whole. The environment generally makes one feel like they are not welcome. That we should be playing Candy Crush Saga or something, as Loud Whispers mentioned as if that was an acceptable selection for female gamers. Our games are all pink and about shopping, and the gaming populace at large doesn't want to let us into the boy's club of all the actual games out there. And they will make this very clear when given the chance.

I guess it's different for everyone. I've never been turned off a game just because there were no women in it, it seems kind of silly. Though it's only a small minority of games I play that have no women in. I can't think of one off-hand, in fact.


Edit: Going through old FPS games -

1993 - Blake Stone was a male character, though you never saw the character beyond the title screen and there was no characterisation beyond blowing up aliens and robots.
1993 - "Doomguy" is so much of a non-character he doesn't really have a name.
1998 - The protagonist in Unreal is female.
1999 - In Unreal Tournament, you can choose a female or male character.
2001 - In Halo, you play a male cyborg, but there's plenty of female chars running around.
2007 - Portal has a female protagonist.
2007 - BioShock has a male protagonist, but I didn't play it all the way through.
2011 - I played Crysis 2 for about 5 minutes. The character was a robot thing.

2 female chars, 4 male chars and 1 'both'. FPS seems to be the genre with the most common as male chars, though. That or maybe racing games, or sports?

[smeeprocket]

It's hard to explain. Because you don't see females in the commercials or as characters to play (I don't think you could play a female in vs mode but don't quote me) and because representation in FPSs was (and still is) all male for all or almost all of them, it just didn't do it for me.

It's not that I haven't played games targeted at males, I absolutely have. Nintendo marketed towards mostly males, though I think it was... a -little- more inclusive than other systems, but I can't be sure, that was a long time ago. Now days they market towards everyone it seems like,which is good.

The only reason I started PVPing was because I played a MUD that was focused around pvp. I was on the bad side. The good side had rezzes on tap, but when we died we had to suck up the death and lose a bunch of exp. I decided to sign up as an assassin (allowing everyone to kill me without getting in trouble, the whole kills system required a degree in law the rules were so extensive.)

I got so used to losing huge chunks of exp that whenever I play any pvp game now, it doesn't phase me to die, because it seems like there usually isn't a downside other than the score.

When Borderlands came out I decided to try it out, and it is a really good starter FPS. I played Lillith and that kind of turned me off to the first one though, because I didn't like the class. But the female character being an option made the game seem more accessible.

As a gamer female, I spend a lot of time feeling alienated from the group as a whole. The environment generally makes one feel like they are not welcome. That we should be playing Candy Crush Saga or something, as Loud Whispers mentioned as if that was an acceptable selection for female gamers. Our games are all pink and about shopping, and the gaming populace at large doesn't want to let us into the boy's club of all the actual games out there. And they will make this very clear when given the chance.

I guess it's different for everyone. I've never been turned off a game just because there were no women in it, it seems kind of silly. Though it's only a small minority of games I play that have no women in. I can't think of one off-hand, in fact.


Edit: Going through old FPS games -

1993 - Blake Stone was a male character, though you never saw the character beyond the title screen and there was no characterisation beyond blowing up aliens and robots.
1993 - "Doomguy" is so much of a non-character he doesn't really have a name.
1998 - The protagonist in Unreal is female.
1999 - In Unreal Tournament, you can choose a female or male character.
2001 - In Halo, you play a male cyborg, but there's plenty of female chars running around.
2007 - Portal has a female protagonist.
2007 - BioShock has a male protagonist, but I didn't play it all the way through.
2011 - I played Crysis 2 for about 5 minutes. The character was a robot thing.

2 female chars, 4 male chars and 1 'both'. FPS seems to be the genre with the most common as male chars, though. That or maybe racing games, or sports?

That's not really a comprehensive spread. I posted a wiki article on gender disparity in gaming a ways up though. Let me repost it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games

I had a feMRA actually who actually had a memorized list of games with females in them, but it ultimately proved to be false anecdotal evidence, since the numbers themselves show a large disparity between genders.

I'm not sure if -just- FPS are in there.

Since I didn't play FPS until more recently it's hard for me to pull up a list of them at all off the top of my head.

Look at this:

The 2013 reboot of Tomb Raider series drew controversy when Kotaku claimed executive producer Ron Rosenberg said rape was utilized as a means for the eponymous character's development.[45] Crystal Dynamics denied that the scene depicted an attempted rape.[46][47]

Wow, that's messed up.

[Caz]

That's not really a comprehensive spread. I posted a wiki article on gender disparity in gaming a ways up though. Let me repost it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games

I had a feMRA actually who actually had a memorized list of games with females in them, but it ultimately proved to be false anecdotal evidence, since the numbers themselves show a large disparity between genders.

I'm not sure if -just- FPS are in there.

Since I didn't play FPS until more recently it's hard for me to pull up a list of them at all off the top of my head.

I've read the article before. I don't see how having a male protagonist prevents women from playing that game.

[smeeprocket]

That's not really a comprehensive spread. I posted a wiki article on gender disparity in gaming a ways up though. Let me repost it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games

I had a feMRA actually who actually had a memorized list of games with females in them, but it ultimately proved to be false anecdotal evidence, since the numbers themselves show a large disparity between genders.

I'm not sure if -just- FPS are in there.

Since I didn't play FPS until more recently it's hard for me to pull up a list of them at all off the top of my head.

I've read the article before. I don't see how having a male protagonist prevents women from playing that game.

I don't know how to explain it to you more than it already has been. When you play a game, you generally want to insert yourself into the role of a hero. When there are no female heroes in the bulk of the games in a genre, or really, any genre, you stop being able to envision yourself in that role. It feels like "oh those kinds of things are for boys to dream about." When you see an ad and all the players in it are boys, it tells you that you are not one of the people that this game is for.

It doesn't help that the gaming community tends to alienate women in general. I mean, this is a hotbutton issue when it really shouldn't be. People have, in this thread, argued against inclusiveness. There's basically a constant message being broadcast: "No girls allowed!"

If this were flipped, and guys weren't represented at all, well first off, anything girly is considered stupid, so they probably would mostly ignore games entirely, but if there was a presence, it would be obvious that you should market towards this new audience just as much as the old audience. But this situation is not reversed, so that is not the way it is perceived.

[Fniff]

You know, whenever I hear about female heroes, I always wonder what the opinion is on female protagonists who definitely don't fit the mold of hero.
What would people think of the female version of Walter White or, more on-topic, Martin Walker from Spec Ops the Line?

[smjjames]

Well, heres a list of games which have female protagonists, probably not all of them have a female main protagonist and have as one of the others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_games_featuring_female_protagonists

I see lots of RPGs in there. Although that list covers the whole spectrum of bad characters to good ones.

[smeeprocket]

You know, whenever I hear about female heroes, I always wonder what the opinion is on female protagonists who definitely don't fit the mold of hero.
What would people think of the female version of Walter White or, more on-topic, Martin Walker from Spec Ops the Line?

I never played spec ops, but I am a big fan of anti-heroes.

edit: yea turn based RPGs always appealed to a wider audience. I used to inhale those things. I loved them. My favorite is Secret of Mana (the first US release one.) Only multiplayer RPG I ever saw that worked, and I and my friends played through it like 10 times.

At some point they got obsessed with non-linear stories and unless you cheated it was really hard to get the entire storyline. I remember umm I think it was the sequel to Chronotrigger. I played through it and finished it and still had no idea what the whole thing was about.

[Neonivek]

You know, whenever I hear about female heroes, I always wonder what the opinion is on female protagonists who definitely don't fit the mold of hero.
What would people think of the female version of Walter White or, more on-topic, Martin Walker from Spec Ops the Line?

Well in point and clicks the out of place female hero isn't unusual... MOSTLY because fish out of water protagonists are almost the norm.

Grey Matter for example the female protagonist is a liar and a sneak and slowly steps up (Anti-hero). Dawn from Phantasmagoria is just a middle aged author and I like the way she is portrayed, HECK the game outright plays on your expectations as if you attempt to make her do any typical action hero activities she will always fail (Atypical Hero).

Valanece from Kings Quest 7 is an old woman and she practically saves the day solo using nothing but sheer determination and the kindness in her heart (Fish out of Water).

They just need to be likable or intentionally unlikable.

[Caz]

I don't know how to explain it to you more than it already has been. When you play a game, you generally want to insert yourself into the role of a hero. When there are no female heroes in the bulk of the games in a genre, or really, any genre, you stop being able to envision yourself in that role. It feels like "oh those kinds of things are for boys to dream about." When you see an ad and all the players in it are boys, it tells you that you are not one of the people that this game is for.

I've never experienced that. If you can't emphasise with a character from the other gender, maybe it's you that has the problem? We have the same issues, the same hopes and fears. There's really not much different between us.

If this were flipped, and guys weren't represented at all, well first off, anything girly is considered stupid, so they probably would mostly ignore games entirely

Says who?