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[Caz]

I did not say that "armour modifiers" were not used, only that they were stupid. Only hitboxes are widely used. Most games are so stupid I feel like I'll turn to a zombie if I play them much.

That's the point I was making... unless you're thinking that they could add a seperate hitbox for the boob window and have it extremely vulnerable to damage.

[smeeprocket]

Just so it's clear for everybody, I believe skin-showing female "armour" and boob windows are stupid and there should not be invisible armour over areas not covered by armour, forcing developers to give everybody sensible armour. If games do not go into enough depth to show this, it is their fault for being shallow. DF does it.

That elder scrolls online armour looks completely stupid for a litany of reasons anyway, the boob window is just the most serious problem. Another reason not to play elder scrolls.

All shooters I've played use hitboxes. Fixed "armour modifiers" sound a dumb idea to me, armour can block a blow completely, reduce the damage or offer no protection at all depending on circumstances. Why would greaves protect someone's head, unless they were in the way?

FPS not including women is fine for some conflicts and not for others. If it is set on the Western Front of World War 1, fine. If it is set in Iraq/Syria now, not fine, because the Kurds use women soldiers. 1:1 gender ratio is not right for any conflict except maybe a few individual battles in certain wars (Viet Nam on the VC side, Eritrea-Ethiopia on the Eritrean side, Dahomey against France on the Dahomey side) and should not be represented as the norm except in wacky counter-factual scenarios.

It's a video game, not a historical reenactment. They can include women. It's not like there's not other elements that are ridiculously unrealistic.

If you wanted to be realistic they could include women disguised as men, since that did happen. But realism and video games isn't really something that goes together.

You might as well just say any WWII games can't have black characters unless they are in a unit with only other black characters. But don't you think that would be racist? Why hold different standards for female representation.

Also, while Elder Scrolls Online is terrible, the rest of the games are awesome, go get them, you will enjoy them.

[smjjames]

Just out of curiosity, how would actual functional plate armor for women work? Just have a flat plane between the boobs? Then again, a slanted surface would deflect spear shots to the throat.

Oh yeah, there was a spinnerette (might not be the actual comic name), where they talked about such boob windows, lol.

[Caz]

It's a video game, not a historical reenactment.

Some games are specifically historical reenactments. FPS games that depict previous world wars, for example.

You might as well just say any WWII games can't have black characters unless they are in a unit with only other black characters. But don't you think that would be racist? Why hold different standards for female representation.

Eh... This is only really true for the American army. Europeans tended to be less racist in this respect.

[Caz]

Just out of curiosity, how would actual functional plate armor for women work? Just have a flat plane between the boobs? Then again, a slanted surface would deflect spear shots to the throat.

Pretty much the same as male armour. Breasts are soft tissue that can be bound against the body fairly easily. You don't get a 'stomach' window for fat people in armour, after all.

[smjjames]

I guess developers like to show breasts just because sex sells.

[Neonivek]

It might be an issue if a woman has particularly large breasts, but athleticism tends to diminish breast size.

I guess developers like to show breasts just because sex sells.

I dunno, have you seen any women's magazines, talk shows, or romantic comedies? Clearly there is more going on then just that.

[smeeprocket]

It might be an issue if a woman has particularly large breasts, but athleticism tends to diminish breast size.

I guess developers like to show breasts just because sex sells.

I dunno, have you seen any women's magazines, talk shows, or romantic comedies? Clearly there is more going on then just that.

most of that stuff is written and greelighted by men, not that women can't suffer from internalized sexism and continue the problem.

A lot of those magazines are basically dictating how women should look. When a woman looks as cosmo, for example, she compares herself to the woman on the cover, and you'll notice these things are littered with how to please your male and whatever new diet trend is out there.

When I see a hot girl, even if i am attracted to her, I am still always comparing my looks and body size to hers. That gets ground into you from the moment you are able to perceive it onward. It creates this deep self-loathing that is hard to overcome.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I don't see what the date the game was published has to do with the argument.

Because I sincerely doubt that many people play a 15 year old FPS that much. It's about how relevant the argument is to todays gaming scene.

Here is one from UT3, published 2007. If that's still not satisfactory, you can always google it yourself.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is a good point, and the boob window is stupid. I just was skeptical that there was an FPS that had come out 'recently' that featured boob windows.

[Urist Tilaturist]

It's a video game, not a historical reenactment. They can include women. It's not like there's not other elements that are ridiculously unrealistic.

If you wanted to be realistic they could include women disguised as men, since that did happen. But realism and video games isn't really something that goes together.

You might as well just say any WWII games can't have black characters unless they are in a unit with only other black characters. But don't you think that would be racist? Why hold different standards for female representation.

Also, while Elder Scrolls Online is terrible, the rest of the games are awesome, go get them, you will enjoy them.

A few points in response:

1. Depicting historical racism is not racist. Whitewashing it and pretending it didn't happen is racist (avoiding Godwin's law here, but think of certain people's views of what happened - or should I say did not happen - during WW2 and how offensive that is to the victims' families). The past was horrible. The same is true for women - showing the horrible sexism of the past tells us how bad it was. Some US army units were racially integrated from the battle of the bulge onwards anyway, so who does not know history?

2. No, no, no, big numbers of women did NOT dress as men to fight. There is ZERO evidence that this was common. I once heard of a woman reaching the trenches in WW1 disguised as a man, but that was 1 out of millions and I cannot verify that account. Medical examinations would have caught most women who tried, and few tried in the first place. The only British woman to fight in WW1 as a soldier was Flora Sandes, who fought openly as a woman in Serbia. The Serbian and Russian armies openly used women soldiers in combat, hence why I specified the Western Front.

3. I saw friends playing elder scrolls and it looked very centred on slaughter, but the slaughter was very unengaging; there was no real skill to combat, just bashing cluelessly at the enemy's armour or throwing spells at him until he died. No grappling, no half-swording and stabbing through gaps in the armour, no proper defence and riposte. Bashing somebody's arm had the same effect as bashing his foot. Most of the weapons and armour looked stupid as well.

[Caz]

Because I sincerely doubt that many people play a 15 year old FPS that much. It's about how relevant the argument is to todays gaming scene.

3e3-----------------------------------=====Take it back. The original Unreal Tournament is the king of all FPS games.


Edit: idk what my cat did to my post. Leaving it.

1. Depicting historical racism is not racist. Whitewashing it and pretending it didn't happen is racist (avoiding Godwin's law here, but think of certain people's views of what happened - or should I say did not happen - during WW2 and how offensive that is to the victims' families). The past was horrible. The same is true for women - showing the horrible sexism of the past tells us how bad it was. Some US army units were racially integrated from the battle of the bulge onwards anyway, so who does not know history?

This is a good point.

[smeeprocket]

While women disguised as men wasn't common, (and I wouldn't want that specifically in a game) it was possible, and generally your character is considered heroic and above ordinary. 1 in a million if you will.

Yes you can depict historical racism, but to exclude a gender or race entirely is still not a good idea regardless of history. Don't get me wrong, it's done, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I'm honestly not even saying EVERY single game needs to have women characters, though I would add people are less likely to take a game with all female characters seriously, unless those females are highly sexualized.

[Caz]

though I would add people are less likely to take a game with all female characters seriously, unless those females are highly sexualized.

Portal did pretty well.

[smjjames]

though I would add people are less likely to take a game with all female characters seriously, unless those females are highly sexualized.

Portal did pretty well.

What about Metroid? The main character Samus was female.

[Fniff]

It only counts if everyone in the game is female. Portal works, Metroid doesn't.