This thread was only started yesterday and it's now 30 pages, growing by the hour?! (Though, some posts seem to be deviating off topic.)
And as to women in games, they're stereotyped to hell and back, but what isn't?
Are you saying that stereotyping a group - any group - is not a bad thing? Should we just... let it go, because that's the way it's always been?
Speaking generally here (not to anyone in particular):
Obviously, there will be people who won't find a particular issue important to them. But that's no reason to tell those who do that it is a non-issue, implying they should go find a different cause to debate or support. Such a brush-off over something someone finds important tends to hurt feelings.
For a moment, let's pretend we're not talking about how females are represented in games. Instead, let's pretend we're talking about how females are represented in other media. Or rather, imagine a world where the vast majority of television, movies, magazines, books and other media are marketed exclusively to males, age 16-25. That is, to the point where it's extremely difficult to find anything for any other age group or gender. Children shows, movies, and books would be incredibly rare, for example. Virtually nothing targeted to older men or women.
My point? It can be difficult to understand, much less care about, an issue (any issue) if it does not affect you directly.
What precisely would you want to get games to do? Include more women?
Now this is a very good point. I think it would help give much-needed direction to this thread if the women would be very specific about:
(a) What female gamers see as fundamentally wrong about the gaming industry.
(b) In what ways would they like to see commercial games changed.
(c) How they want female characters portrayed in games.
Some points have already been brought up. But instead of having guy gamers debate or puzzle over this, female gamers should specify this in their own words. (Even if it has already been stated in this thread, it deserves repeating. Right?)
Why, if it damages immersion, e.g. a halo scene where Cortana is actually Colin and the Master Chief is Mistress Chief.
We can talk about specific games. But I think it's more about how the game industry as a whole is largely ignoring the female gamer demographic, despite the fact that it is very large and growing.
But, in answer to your question: Consider the success of the Mass Effect series. Did it hurt the story that you could play Lieutenant Commander Shepard as either male or female? Of course not. It did impact which characters you could hook-up with. But not much changes.
Even on the sexualization front there's plenty of that across both genders. Illidan has NEVER worn a shirt in his official art.
Maybe. But that's hardly a fair comparison. Females get sexualized in games far more often and to a much greater extent, simply because they are targeted at a young male audience.
There are examples of shirtless guys, sure. But this is far more common in fighting games than in, say, first-person shooters. And they're not shirtless to appeal to female gamers. Rather, it's to make them seem overly buff and, thus, impress a sense of raw muscle and strength. No doubt, it's to make a villain or hero seem especially tough or impressive (as opposed to sexy).
To be fair, though, I can see things from the game industry's perspective:
They know that their main demographic is males age 12-25. As a business in a free-market economy, targeting that audience makes good business sense. And to alienate themselves from that group would be foolish.
The female gaming demographic may be sizable and growing. But isn't this awareness rather... new? In general, wouldn't appealing directly to that demographic be considered a risky business venture, especially if they had to exclude or alienate young male gamers in the process?
For example: If a major game developer had to completely eliminate the sexualization of female characters in all their games (i.e.; no overly revealing outfits or busty Barbie-doll bodies), would males age 12-25 still be as eager to support such products? Probably not. At least, not if young males can get the kind of games they want elsewhere. (And even if that isn't exactly true, it must be how game developers perceive the situation.)
It's a complicated issue, though. Game developers need to try harder to strike a balance. That is, to appeal to a wider audience without offending or alienating.
And then there's the fact that a rapidly growing segment of the gaming market is online. In particular, MMO's and subscription services. That's where the real game money is these days!
And yet... Correct me if I'm wrong, but: Aren't the age and gender demographics more homogenous in online games? If so, it makes good business sense for online games to appeal to a wider audience.
We're already seeing some of that, though. Consider how more MMO's are targeting a younger audience, DisneyMMO and Cartoon Network's FusionFall being just two examples.
I seriously doubt men need highly sexualized and objectified images of women to play a game.
They are used to getting it, and that eye candy might be appealing on the surface, but it's a cheap gimmick and I don't think it would hurt sales.
There is a big market out there for those that want to appeal to female gamers, it's not a small segment, even in earlier times, there were a number of us, we were just sort of... ignored. Always.
But games are more mainstream now, and have been for awhile. This higher number of female gamers is not -that- new, and yet we remain highly under-represented in the industry. This isn't because there aren't qualified female designers and developers, it's because the men i charge higher more men, either due to being comfortable around those people, or feeling they will be better at the job.
A game can appeal to both genders quite equally by presenting both male and female characters as powerful and human. I don't feel the bulk of male gamers won't buy that kind of game. I have never played Mass Effect, but iirc, it was good on this level. Borderlands would be another one. These were both very popular.
As for appealing to women directly, there's a market for it, but I don't think the male run industry knows how to tap it.
I don't feel their decisions on this matter, and refusal to represent or hire women, is good business sense. If almost half your audience is female, you represent them. Flat out. That's more money for you.
This is a boy's club, plain and simple.
That said, I agree with other points in your post and think it was well written and thoughtful.
Also, I guess I am diving back in to this.
edit: in response to what we want, it's not like there's a laundry list of exact things. We want more representation for the most part, and less objectification. We want more female protagonists, more realistic body types, even more representation for POC in games. I want to be able to play a game, and play a female in that game without walking around in bikini armor and sporting DDD chest and a 20" waist. I want games that don't just use women as plot points for the protagonist to be more heroic or have something to get revenge over. Women who don't fall apart and collapse into the hero's arms (even when they themselves are the protagonist)
Other women might want other things, much like what different guys want. But making us a part of the creation of games and marketing to us as much as men, that is what needs to happen.
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Topic: Females in Games? Thread (Read 166435 times)