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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 165622 times)

Caz

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #435 on: December 17, 2014, 05:47:24 pm »

Sure... It wasn't Sheng-Ji Yang at all...

He murdered the Captain, right? I'll give him points for that, but afterwards he was just sitting around spouting philosophy and killing unarmed techs while Corazon had split from the rest and had organised her soldiers to split off into their own faction. Everyone else was still trying to keep it together by this point.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #436 on: December 17, 2014, 06:25:21 pm »

Sure... It wasn't Sheng-Ji Yang at all...

He murdered the Captain, right? I'll give him points for that, but afterwards he was just sitting around spouting philosophy and killing unarmed techs while Corazon had split from the rest and had organised her soldiers to split off into their own faction. Everyone else was still trying to keep it together by this point.
Yeah, but that's because her people were the ship's security forces, whom already had a clear chain of command and were armed to the teeth. It's no surprise that they had a more orderly planetfall than the rest.
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Thundercraft

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #437 on: December 17, 2014, 06:55:22 pm »

:o This thread was only started yesterday and it's now 30 pages, growing by the hour?! (Though, some posts seem to be deviating off topic.)

And as to women in games, they're stereotyped to hell and back, but what isn't?

Are you saying that stereotyping a group - any group - is not a bad thing? Should we just... let it go, because that's the way it's always been?

Speaking generally here (not to anyone in particular):

Obviously, there will be people who won't find a particular issue important to them. But that's no reason to tell those who do that it is a non-issue, implying they should go find a different cause to debate or support. Such a brush-off over something someone finds important tends to hurt feelings.

For a moment, let's pretend we're not talking about how females are represented in games. Instead, let's pretend we're talking about how females are represented in other media. Or rather, imagine a world where the vast majority of television, movies, magazines, books and other media are marketed exclusively to males, age 16-25. That is, to the point where it's extremely difficult to find anything for any other age group or gender. Children shows, movies, and books would be incredibly rare, for example. Virtually nothing targeted to older men or women.

My point? It can be difficult to understand, much less care about, an issue (any issue) if it does not affect you directly.

What precisely would you want to get games to do? Include more women?

Now this is a very good point. I think it would help give much-needed direction to this thread if the women would be very specific about:

(a) What female gamers see as fundamentally wrong about the gaming industry.
(b) In what ways would they like to see commercial games changed.
(c) How they want female characters portrayed in games.

Some points have already been brought up. But instead of having guy gamers debate or puzzle over this, female gamers should specify this in their own words. (Even if it has already been stated in this thread, it deserves repeating. Right?)

Why, if it damages immersion, e.g. a halo scene where Cortana is actually Colin and the Master Chief is Mistress Chief.

We can talk about specific games. But I think it's more about how the game industry as a whole is largely ignoring the female gamer demographic, despite the fact that it is very large and growing.

But, in answer to your question: Consider the success of the Mass Effect series. Did it hurt the story that you could play Lieutenant Commander Shepard as either male or female? Of course not. It did impact which characters you could hook-up with. But not much changes.

Even on the sexualization front there's plenty of that across both genders. Illidan has NEVER worn a shirt in his official art.

Maybe. But that's hardly a fair comparison. Females get sexualized in games far more often and to a much greater extent, simply because they are targeted at a young male audience.

There are examples of shirtless guys, sure. But this is far more common in fighting games than in, say, first-person shooters. And they're not shirtless to appeal to female gamers. Rather, it's to make them seem overly buff and, thus, impress a sense of raw muscle and strength. No doubt, it's to make a villain or hero seem especially tough or impressive (as opposed to sexy).

To be fair, though, I can see things from the game industry's perspective:

They know that their main demographic is males age 12-25. As a business in a free-market economy, targeting that audience makes good business sense. And to alienate themselves from that group would be foolish.

The female gaming demographic may be sizable and growing. But isn't this awareness rather... new? In general, wouldn't appealing directly to that demographic be considered a risky business venture, especially if they had to exclude or alienate young male gamers in the process?

For example: If a major game developer had to completely eliminate the sexualization of female characters in all their games (i.e.; no overly revealing outfits or busty Barbie-doll bodies), would males age 12-25 still be as eager to support such products? Probably not. At least, not if young males can get the kind of games they want elsewhere. (And even if that isn't exactly true, it must be how game developers perceive the situation.)

It's a complicated issue, though. Game developers need to try harder to strike a balance. That is, to appeal to a wider audience without offending or alienating.

And then there's the fact that a rapidly growing segment of the gaming market is online. In particular, MMO's and subscription services. That's where the real game money is these days!

And yet... Correct me if I'm wrong, but: Aren't the age and gender demographics more homogenous in online games? If so, it makes good business sense for online games to appeal to a wider audience.

We're already seeing some of that, though. Consider how more MMO's are targeting a younger audience, DisneyMMO and Cartoon Network's FusionFall being just two examples.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:08:44 pm by Thundercraft »
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Cheeetar

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #438 on: December 17, 2014, 07:05:02 pm »

Heck, feminists just recently managed to get GTA V pulled from Australia because all the men who played it became serial rapists from following its shining example on how to be a law abiding citizen. No joke, they pulled the game off the shelves because it 'encouraged violence against women.'

Not exactly. 'Feminists' (by which I guess you mean some people who signed a petition?) managed to get a supermarket chain to stop shelving a product (Target Australia.) I'm... sorry for your loss, Mr. American?
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Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #439 on: December 17, 2014, 07:31:45 pm »

Yes but why should we listen to Pop Feminists and apply it to ALL feminists everywhere?

It would be like taking Dr. Phil and making him the exemplar for all psychologists... or Glenn Beck and making him the exemplar for censervatives.

Yes a lot of Feminists just write articles meant to shock you to gain attention, YES there are lies too...

Yet lets... just... ignore them...

When I said the issue is that someone will always find an issue I wasn't speaking of ninja feminists I was speaking of society in general. We aren't at the point where we can perfectly cast off all the preconceptions involving the genders. It is only to say that we cannot fix the problem over night.

This old sitcom for example had a feminism episode where what they did is recreate the movie Psycho but switched all the genders around. It didn't work because it just looked silly.

While that isn't really a sufficient answer I guess what I mean is. Yes men and women are both the same and any differences you find are unimportant at heart... But you can't ask society to give up its baggage and preconceptions in one fell blow.

Or heck forget ignoring the feminists, anti-game lobbyists, puritans, critics, super fanboys, and what have you... and take what they say and think about it critically and either agree or disagree. Only extremists take disagreements as offensive. Most people don't care unless you are disagreeing on one of their prime tenants.

In fact if we just addressed the issues instead of dreading them, we would have been over it by now.

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Some points have already been brought up. But instead of having guy gamers debate or puzzle over this, female gamers should specify this in their own words. (Even if it has already been stated in this thread, it deserves repeating. Right?)

Here is kind of the thing... It isn't anything special.

http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/

Just read the article and yes by FAR it doesn't speak for every woman... but what is being asked isn't large. Heck it even acknowledges that characters like Bayonetta appeals to some women and is loathed by others. It isn't fancy.

I usually just sum it up as: Women want to be portrayed "better".
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:37:47 pm by Neonivek »
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Glowcat

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #440 on: December 17, 2014, 07:33:57 pm »

Technically it was a petition started by sex workers specifically because of how the GTA games rely on their fringe status to perpetuate their dehumanization as humor/entertainment. Certainly plenty of feminists supported it, even those who actively opposed actual game bans in the country, because they don't believe that freedom of association (in this case, association by which products a store is willing to sell) should be perverted into inability to disassociate from elements you do not wish to support. The only people this actually effects are: 1) Australia Target's standing in the Capitalist horserace, and either 2a) People who think the games they like must be sold at every retail store or 2b) People being more honest with themselves and opposing the move because they disagree with the politics behind the petition, rather than the removal itself being outrageous.
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Ghills

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #441 on: December 17, 2014, 07:37:22 pm »


Are you saying that stereotyping a group - any group - is not a bad thing? Should we just... let it go, because that's the way it's always been?
...
 I think it would help give much-needed direction to this thread if the women would be very specific about:

(a) What female gamers see as fundamentally wrong about the gaming industry.
(b) In what ways would they like to see commercial games changed.
(c) How they want female characters portrayed in games.


You go from 'We should stop stereotyping' to asking women for a single answer, as if they were a monolithic group. Hm. Kudos for starting off great, but you're not quite there yet.

Really, this is the root problem - people tend to treat women as interchangeable instead of as individuals.  It's worse when women get shoved into the 'hos and victims' category, but shoving them into the madonna category isn't a whole lot better. 

The big thing that women want is respect, just like every human being on the planet.   If you'd like to find specific examples, there is a ton of stuff out there about this. Start with any of the bajillions of feminist critiques of entertainment and go from there. Read up on the experiences of female developers.  Sit down and try to think 'If I were a woman, how would this character or that dialogue make me feel?' 

Oh, and if you ever run across someone who's openly female in game, don't ask her for advice on how to propose to your girl friend (seriously, I saw this happen, don't do it).
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Ghills

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #442 on: December 17, 2014, 07:41:41 pm »

Technically it was a petition started by sex workers specifically because of how the GTA games rely on their fringe status to perpetuate their dehumanization as humor/entertainment. Certainly plenty of feminists supported it, even those who actively opposed actual game bans in the country, because they don't believe that freedom of association (in this case, association by which products a store is willing to sell) should be perverted into inability to disassociate from elements you do not wish to support. The only people this actually effects are: 1) Australia Target's standing in the Capitalist horserace, and either 2a) People who think the games they like must be sold at every retail store or 2b) People being more honest with themselves and opposing the move because they disagree with the politics behind the petition, rather than the removal itself being outrageous.

The most hilarious thing about the outrage is the people who claim this is 'censorship' or 'socialism perverting the marketplace'.  I'm starting to feel like I need to just constantly like to a Youtube video of the Princess Bride, because those words don't mean what the people using them think they mean.

The Target petition is capitalism in action. No government involvement whatsoever.  A completely voluntary business response to customer demand. Free market and free speech people should be supporting Target's right to do and express whatever it wants.
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I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE
Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

Caz

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #443 on: December 17, 2014, 07:44:15 pm »

Yeah, but that's because her people were the ship's security forces, whom already had a clear chain of command and were armed to the teeth. It's no surprise that they had a more orderly planetfall than the rest.

Exactly. By the time everyone was waking up, she was already raiding the armoury. :P
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pisskop

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #444 on: December 17, 2014, 07:44:21 pm »

The Target petition is capitalism in action. No government involvement whatsoever.  A completely voluntary business response to customer demand. Free market and free speech people should be supporting Target's right to do and express whatever it wants.
Well put, then.  I believe the first part and see the second.
  How much value do we put into petitions and outrage, then?  There's been reactions on both ends of the scale, 'overreactions' and 'underreactions'.  Its a fine thing to say we should let the change go unfettered, its another to try to make people believe its just.  Not fair, just.

  Because half of this conversation is what amounts to gossip.  Thats the nature of social discourse.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:47:14 pm by pisskop »
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Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #445 on: December 17, 2014, 07:45:48 pm »

Well you forget Ghills that Australia has pretty strict censorship laws.

Kneejerk reactions are unfortunately to be expected... Especially since videogames like GTA have a tendency to get banned.

Or rather I think they are just tired of people saying their videogames are evil and should be banned.

Not that I can think of any reason why the store shouldn't keep the game out of stock especially in an environment of wide demand.

As well it isn't like the game was banned for being "Homosexual propaganda" or something I'd find morally repugnant if that was their reasoning. (Ok PLEASE read this carefully >_<)

Either way the situation is kind of more then just a ban. Though really what is Target going to do? Keep a product a lot of people dislike (irrationally or not, I doubt Target cares) just for the few people who are going to buy it?

------

Ok here is a question I have because I never QUITE understood this point... at least when it is taken to the extreme.

What is wrong with characters being informed by their gender exactly?

When I think of all the greatest female characters who ever existed... they almost universally have a gendered personality.

Yet it is constantly mentioned that characters should be written as if they were genderless.

I can understand not playing up stereotypes and not making characters beholden to their gender.

I just never understood that idea as one that all fiction should aspire for... given that it is constantly contradicted.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 07:57:53 pm by Neonivek »
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Ghills

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #446 on: December 17, 2014, 07:58:14 pm »

Well you forget Ghills that Australia has pretty strict censorship laws.

Kneejerk reactions are unfortunately to be expected... Especially since videogames like GTA have a tendency to get banned.

Or rather I think they are just tired of people saying their videogames are evil and should be banned.

Not that I can think of any reason why the store shouldn't keep the game out of stock especially in an environment of wide demand.

As well it isn't like the game was banned for being "Homosexual propaganda" or something I'd find morally repugnant if that was their reasoning. (Ok PLEASE read this carefully >_<)

Either way the situation is kind of more then just a ban. Though really what is Target going to do? Keep a product a lot of people dislike (irrationally or not, I doubt Target cares) just for the few people who are going to buy it?

That Australians are touchy about this kind of thing doesn't stop ignorant outrage from being hilariously ironic.

It's not a ban. A company has stopped selling a product. This happens all the time. Literally, every day.  People who want the game still have options to purchase it - the game is not banned in any way, shape or form.  It simply isn't being distributed through as many outlets as before.

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I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE
Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.

Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #447 on: December 17, 2014, 07:59:06 pm »

It is banned from that store... essentially.

Though I might be stretching the definition.
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Caz

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #448 on: December 17, 2014, 08:11:38 pm »

Sure... It wasn't Sheng-Ji Yang at all...

He murdered the Captain, right? I'll give him points for that, but afterwards he was just sitting around spouting philosophy and killing unarmed techs while Corazon had split from the rest and had organised her soldiers to split off into their own faction. Everyone else was still trying to keep it together by this point.

I went back and checked the story to make sure I hadn't gotten it wrong. A lot of the characters probably had designs on making their own society on Chiron, but the Spartans were definitely the first faction to form and decisively split with the rest of the people on board.

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Ghills

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #449 on: December 17, 2014, 08:46:49 pm »

It is banned from that store... essentially.

Though I might be stretching the definition.

You're not so much stretching the definition as completely reinventing the word.

'Banned' would be if the game couldn't be in the stores at all, like if Target was searching people coming in and not letting people in with copies of the game or confiscating their copies.  The game isn't banned in any sense - no one at Target cares if you buy the game elsewhere, no one is going to pat you down for copies of it when coming in, etc.  Target is simply not selling it anymore. That's all.

It's a completely normal business decision. When Whole Foods (or the organic/natural store of your choice) drops a supplier, does it become a huge international issue? No, because people understand that's a business decision. But gamers do tend to wildly blow things out of proportion, and that's definitely happening here.
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I AM POINTY DEATH INCARNATE
Ye know, being an usurper overseer gone mad with power isn't too bad. It's honestly not that different from being a normal overseer.
To summarize:
They do an epic face. If that fails, they beat said object to death with their beard.
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