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Python

5 (29.4%)

C# or other version of C

12 (70.6%)

Total Members Voted: 16

[mainiac]

So another thread got highjacked by a bunch of people saying they thought it would be cool to work on a economic simulation game over the forums.  So lets discuss this in a non-highjacked thread.

So I think three questions come first.
1) What language will the game be?
2) Who can do what specific parts of the programming?
3) What will be the genre/nature of the game?

1) Language
Most people seemed to be interested in C++ as a language.  The advantage to this is that it is common and can be adapted to most tasks.  I can't say much more because I don't know C++ very well.  Someone would need to take up a leadership mantle who does know C++ well.
I am personally a fan of python.  It does a lot of what C++ does but it's just a little more logical and easy to understand, IMHO.
Java seemed less popular but has the benefit of allowing things to be done through a browser/website layout which is a plus.

So please say what your programming strengths are.  For instance I am most experienced with python and Tkinter but can try to brush up on other languages.

2) Roles
If you are interested in doing this then please say the specific parts of the game that you would be interested in programming.  I think we need to figure this out at the same time as 1.
For instance I would be interested in doing purchase/selling logic and programming a consumer AI.  My strengths in this regard is that I have training in economics so know how to set these up so things wont get imbalanced.  I am not very good with interfaces and would like if someone else focused on that.

3) Genre of the game
There are a lot of different genres within economic simulation.  There's business sim style like the capitalism games or detriot, there could be a roguelike trader game, there could be a macro-economic sim like Victoria.  I think we can't really make any descisions here until we figure out step 2 but it's worth discussing.

[dennislp3]

I would like to help as I need to practice my programming...aka I am mostly useless when it comes to the more advanced stuff but would love to work on a project for the experience. But I would love to handle basic stuff and data entry.

I would personally prefer a medieval themed economics game. To me it seems more likely to have variety and oppurtunities that modern trade would not have.

Shortages of resources would be more common, issues with wars and plagues and bandits and all that stuff you wont really find in a modern trade based game. Stuff to make it more interesting than basic trading back and forth.

I think it would be reasonable to simulate a good and realistic medieval world that simulates everyones needs in a way similar to The Guild. If we wanted we could even simulate actual production and make it more of a full business sim as opposed to a strictly trade based goods game that pop up out of nowhere. I think it would also serve better for the game to focus on smaller focus than the entire world such as a nation or a few small nations

on a side note we could consider Unity and using C#...that would be my preference.

[dorf]

I'll only PTW for now.

I'm not a complete beginner at gamedev in JS, Java, then C++ (it's been a few years...), then C#. I'm not a professional either, but I make games in my spare time.

I'd like to collaborate on a game with B12 folk, however I'm unsure whether the economy simulation genre is my cup of tea. I'll try a few of these games as well as keep an eye on this thread, and I'll get back to you if I'm interested.

Another thing that worries me is that you haven't defined the game and its gameplay. I *have* seen a few game projects where group decision-making made a successful game. However, I can currently only think of one.
Getting multiple suggestions from the community is fine, but ultimately someone should spearhead this project and make the tough decisions him/herself.

[LoSboccacc]

before the language, which is the thing that matter less, will this be multyplayer, single player, massively multiplayer on web?

[dennislp3]

I would gladly be willing to "lead" the project...but we have to see what sort of people want to contribute and what not.

I have personally been working on a medieval economy simulation on my own to practice programming and for a future game project so this seems like a great oppurtunity for me.

Multiplayer would be better for the sake of interest and activity of the project. Singleplayer would be easier to handle though. I would prefer to stay away from MMO...but I wouldn't say we shouldn't do it

[dorf]

Multiplayer aspect prolongs development time, MMO aspect massively prolongs development time.

You could, instead, make a singleplayer game but keeping in mind that it will someday become multiplayer/MMO. Good design from the start will save you a lot of time later on.
Which will prolong development time

How about making a prototype first? A quick & dirty game that shows the basic gameplay. If that's any good, you continue; otherwise, rethink the game mechanics and make another prototype.

[mainiac]

I would personally prefer a medieval themed economics game. To me it seems more likely to have variety and oppurtunities that modern trade would not have.

If it's bay12 we might as well change medieval theme to dwarf theme

Another thing that worries me is that you haven't defined the game and its gameplay. I *have* seen a few game projects where group decision-making made a successful game. However, I can currently only think of one.
Getting multiple suggestions from the community is fine, but ultimately someone should spearhead this project and make the tough decisions him/herself.

Definitely a valid point.  We can't crowdsource all decision making choices.  I feel like an open brainstorming format is good here at the very start, just seeing what people are into.  But eventually we need some ironfisted leadership.  I could serve as leader when it comes to the "under the hood" economic actions side of the game but I would appreciate if someone else would want to be a leader on the UI side of things.

As I see it a dictator leader needs to do two things.  First is being able to say "No" a lot to people with suggestions.  Suggestions are really easy, we are going to have too many of them.  Secondly is being able to take the lead on doing any aspect of the work that needs to get done within their domain.

Multiplayer aspect prolongs development time, MMO aspect massively prolongs development time.

You could, instead, make a singleplayer game but keeping in mind that it will someday become multiplayer/MMO. Good design from the start will save you a lot of time later on.
Which will prolong development time

Multiplayer comes with the perk that we dont need to make an AI to compete against the player.  I would suggest towards making it singleplayer but with a completely passive opponent with the intent of going multiplayer later.

How about making a prototype first? A quick & dirty game that shows the basic gameplay. If that's any good, you continue; otherwise, rethink the game mechanics and make another prototype.

That is a very good idea.

[LoSboccacc]

before thinking on gameplay, my question was exquisitely practical: if you want it to be a browser game, you will have to deploy it, and the cheapest services are all php. some offer node.js and java small allowances, but as we grow someone will have to foot the bill.


anyo


now that you mention it, a dwarf theme economy game would be exceptionally interested. mountainhome could act as challenge factor, demanding materials, weapons and resources, while your need for managing the local population (abstracted as labor fee) could very quickly bankrupt you unless you can manage to get a hold to local resources with scouting parties and mining settlements (to be paid, payment already incur the costs for safety, no battling and such)

here, let's put ideas there to maintain some order and sanity:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EUu35sSftulxFIUPU4dQGlvE_8WpvWzLJI4BJLEBPKs/edit?usp=sharing

[Helgoland]

PTW mostly, but go check out Caravaneer. Its simulated economy is fairly good as far as I can tell.

[kytuzian]

Personally, knowing a fair bit of C++, I can tell you that C++ will slow development and lead to general confusion if you don't know what you're doing (and sometimes even if you do). Using Python will make it much faster, but probably still lead to some (less) confusion. I'd vote for Python. Actually, to be completely honest, I'd vote for Julia (http://julialang.org/), but lots more people know Python.

I'd like to help with programming, but I don't know if I'll be able to, so I'll just go with I'll see. And because, like other people have said, there is no plan right now and I don't want to commit to that. The first thing you need are some specifics on what exactly is the goal. I might be able to help with programming specifics, but I know just about nothing about economics. As for multiplayer, I think we can handle it, we just have to be careful so it doesn't get too bloated.

So details, first. Make some decisions about it.

[lavenders2]

I will PTW as well, but if it ever gets to the point of "OMG ITS HAPPENING" I would like to help.

I would be able to write music for this game. If we are going with a medieval theme it would be significantly easier (and probably far less cheesy) than just a straight up modern economy simulator. I don't actually have a lot of experience with using MIDI which is a problem because it probably will make the best sounding music. I do however have a large knowledge of music theory, and could write anything from a 4 instrument piece to a full orchestra. Getting it to sound ok is the problem.
I have actually done a programming course at uni for engineering, but it was in MATLAB (which is a language of its own, but it was based off a language, can't remember which) and it was somewhat basic. If I had to learn another language I could but it really doesn't bother me what we write this in. The only thing that bothers me is how to actually implement the music, which is something we could worry about much further down the line once we have actually decided a language and things are rolling.

[Orange Wizard]

I voted for "Other" in the poll to suggest C#. I'm better with Python, and I think I could handle some fairly advanced stuff with it. No promises, though.

+1 to medieval/dwarf economy sim. The "feudal" aspect of having nobles/mountainhomes demanding valuable resources might make for an interesting mechanic, but it might also be really really bad.

We're also going to need someone to lead development. I'd prefer not to.

[ShadowHammer]

This looks awesome, but unfortunately I don't have much to contribute right now, so I'll just post to watch. Best of luck!

[mainiac]

The only thing that bothers me is how to actually implement the music, which is something we could worry about much further down the line once we have actually decided a language and things are rolling.

Well python seems to be winning the poll at the moment and it supports mp3.

I'd like to help with programming, but I don't know if I'll be able to, so I'll just go with I'll see. And because, like other people have said, there is no plan right now and I don't want to commit to that.

I want to keep the brainstorming going for a while longer but how about I advance a plan as part of the brainstorming process?

Name: Guildmaster (tales of industry and acquisition)
Genre: Business Sim/Trader
Game Genre: Business management

The player takes on the role of a guildmaster with 12 or so (worked for Thorin) dwarves to be managed.  The guildmaster must provide the dwarves with the tools they need to work as craftsmen and with enough cold hard cash to keep them happy.

To get cash to fund their guild the guildmaster manages guild production and sells what the guild produces.  They can sign contracts with other guilds and can help fund caravans which will offer the chance for very large transactions.

Interface: The player interface would focus around characters, workspaces, tools and goods.  There wouldn't be a need for a map.  The interface would be a set of different menu interfaces.

(If the following is confusing I could make an interface mockup.  If you have a better idea please do suggest, as this is just brainstorming and not my strongsuit either.)

Workshops screen: The guildmaster can assign workers to workshops and assign equipment to workers.  There would be three parallel scroll menus, workspace, guildmembers and equipment.  Equipment can be dragged onto guildmembers or workspaces and guildmembers can be dragged onto spaces.
Guilds screen: The guildmaster can negotiate with other guild masters to buy equipment or sell contracts for regular sales.  There would be a list of guilds to select, a list of items that the selected guild will sell at a certain price and a list of items they will contract to buy at a certain price.
Mountain Halls: The guildmaster can offer goods for sale to the general mountain hall population or purchase new spaces for the guild (workshops, warehouses and residences).  Some sort of list of spaces to buy and a list of the guild inventory that can be clicked and dragged onto the guild salesroom floor.
Caravans: The guildmaster can contribute funds to a caravan or move goods to a caravan that the guild has contributed to.  A list of caravans to fund and an inventory that can be dragged onto the caravans.

Economy: The game would simulate the economic needs of all the guilds and population of the fortress.  Like the player, the other guildmasters would buy goods and put them on market.  But the real heart of the system would be that all the dwarves in the fortress would take their earnings and spend them as them on the goods that guilds are offering for sale.  Every day a fraction of the dwarves in the fortress would compare the prices for a number of goods and chose the one who's price/value they like the most.  They can also chose just to keep their cold hard cash if everything is priced too high.  Every dwarf would have an inventory they consume over time, so if they already have five kegs of beer they wont be inclined to buy another unless it's very well priced.

In this way gold flows through the mountain continuously and is never created out of the ether.  Gold will only come into the mountain when the guilds fund a caravan that goes off and sells goods, bringing back more money in return.  This system rewards the player for not just getting their money through production but also spending it wisely because taking all their neighbors gold does them no good.

I could handle the tracking of goods, production and money for such a system.  I'd rather not do the interface because it would look like a 12 year old drew it.

[LoSboccacc]

Did they get around the fact that to run python you need a python interpreter installed separately?

Anyway set of drawn screen beats text menu any time and require not much more dev time off we can get an artist

I'd also avoid arbitrary limit and too big starting packages, like the 12 starting dwarves

It's unclear how you would get resources needed die production. Where does the iron come from? What happens when it's not enough and how the player can influence the fortress production of it?