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[smeeprocket]

I'm sorry about the rape and murder threats, but I have no intention of sending you any and strongly disagree with them. I'm sorry about the doxxing fear, but I have no intention of doing that either. Nor do I have any intention of being pegged with a stick, unless it was very well lubricated. I even agree that the Assassin's Creed dev's excuse was a lame cop out.

I already said that men are only superior physically, and that should not matter in a civilised society. It does, but it should not. There is no divine right, just might makes right, and that is a rubbish system.

You are speaking to me as if I almost am one of those lowlifes who gets a hard-on by harassing women. I have no respect for them either. But the good news is that almost none of them ever do anything about it, because most of them are far too cowardly to risk actually physically attacking anyone. How many times have any of these sorry cases actually carrying through one of their threats? Very few, if ever. They are relying on empty threats to drive their targets away. But the way to win is not to treat those who are not part of that minority of male gamers as part of it.

Every single game? Have you not heard of Mass Effect?

I'm bisexual actually...

Mass Effect is one of the rare ones. There's not many. Even characters like Laura Croft and Samus have, in more recent times, be rewritten to be fragile victims that need the orders of men or mindlessly follow them.

You take what I'm saying personally. And while some of the things you have said give me the feelings that these creeps give off, I genuinely think your intent is not malicious.

Just because you are a decent guy, doesn't mean everyone else is. Those people are still there. The situation remains the same.

edit: I'm not saying that either gender is superior in Df and that's my point. It should remain that way. People pushing for male dominance roles (specifically, not even procedurally generated gender roles that are random) seem somehow completely disturbed by the reverse concept, because it is not "realistic". Except that this is a fnatasy game that has no dimorphism to begin with.

[XXXXYYYY]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

you have apparently not read the rest of the thread. I am exhausted from this cyclical argument and have little patience for it now.

I don't care about perception. I, and others that are not like you and other white, straight, cis-gendered males, have just as much right to inclusion as you and it is not political. It is political for you because you are apathetic to the issue. The rest of us just want to feel like we are part of the game.

If we were to not include men in the game at all would you be okay with that? Or would you make a fuss?

Please don't clump all of us["white, straight, cis-gendered males"] into one group. Please?

Humanity is a very diverse group of people and one set of characteristics does not make a person behave a certain way. To believe otherwise is to incite all sorts of flaws into your thinking process.

I'm mostly restraining from this discussion, but please tone down the stereotyping.
If you were not, I am deeply sorry.

OH LAWD NINJAS

[Urist Tilaturist]

I already told you that I do not care about elves' or even goblins' potential matriarchy. Even my dwarf mayor/baron is usually female, so my forts often count as matriarchies. But if any sort of dimorphism enters the game, by mod or update, humans must be included.

It's not just about me, it's about all the other male gamers that you are stereotyping  and lumping in with the worst lot.

[smeeprocket]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

you have apparently not read the rest of the thread. I am exhausted from this cyclical argument and have little patience for it now.

I don't care about perception. I, and others that are not like you and other white, straight, cis-gendered males, have just as much right to inclusion as you and it is not political. It is political for you because you are apathetic to the issue. The rest of us just want to feel like we are part of the game.

If we were to not include men in the game at all would you be okay with that? Or would you make a fuss?

Please don't clump all of us["white, straight, cis-gendered males"] into one group. Please?

Humanity is a very diverse group of people and one set of characteristics does not make a person behave a certain way. To believe otherwise is to incite all sorts of flaws into your thinking process.

I'm mostly restraining from this discussion, but please tone down the stereotyping.
If you were not, I am deeply sorry.

OH LAWD NINJAS

My point is, games appeal to that group almost in their entirety. It's not a statement on that particular group, but more on that groups advantages and privileges.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Because that group are their main consumers. You said women are almost half of gamers, but that is all games, including casual ones. For the titles you mentioned (COD/assassin's creed), men are still the main audience. It's consumer targeting. Not agreeing necessarily, just understanding.

[smeeprocket]

I already told you that I do not care about elves' or even goblins' potential matriarchy. Even my dwarf mayor/baron is usually female, so my forts often count as matriarchies. But if any sort of dimorphism enters the game, by mod or update, humans must be included.

It's not just about me, it's about all the other male gamers that you are stereotyping  and lumping in with the worst lot.

If you don't want to be part of the problem, you should be willing to be part of the solution. Otherwise, you let the more vocal minority dictate the course of action.

Why should humans be included? There's nothing like this in the game currently, so even if it was added, it could go in any direction. And that would be preferable (procedurally generated) than insisting that men be dominant.

I don't approve of it either way, but if it was procedural, at least then it would be a toss up from civ to civ as to who would hold the power, if either gender was on top.

edit: The concept that all women play candy crush saga is wrong. For excample, the MMO community has about 41% of its gamers as females. We play the same games you do, we just suck the exclusion and stereotyping up.

[Graknorke]

Let me know when RPGs actually start doing that, and I'll support them.

Don't most? I mean the first RPG video games I think of are the Elder Scrolls and Fallout, neither of which affect stats based on the character's sex.

EDIT: Oh fuck all these ninjas.
"we" and "you"? This thread is going somewhere real fun.

[Urist Tilaturist]

If there was no dimorphism then nobody would be on top and they would be like dwarves. Patriarchy did not emerge by divine right, only by men being stronger. Without that, it would never have happened.

I didn't notice any sexual dimorphism or resulting discrimination in WoW. Or most RPGs for that matter. Nor did I say that women only played candy crush.

[Metalsie]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

you have apparently not read the rest of the thread. I am exhausted from this cyclical argument and have little patience for it now.

I don't care about perception. I, and others that are not like you and other white, straight, cis-gendered males, have just as much right to inclusion as you and it is not political. It is political for you because you are apathetic to the issue. The rest of us just want to feel like we are part of the game.

If we were to not include men in the game at all would you be okay with that? Or would you make a fuss?

Please don't clump all of us["white, straight, cis-gendered males"] into one group. Please?

Humanity is a very diverse group of people and one set of characteristics does not make a person behave a certain way. To believe otherwise is to incite all sorts of flaws into your thinking process.

I'm mostly restraining from this discussion, but please tone down the stereotyping.
If you were not, I am deeply sorry.

OH LAWD NINJAS

My point is, games appeal to that group almost in their entirety. It's not a statement on that particular group, but more on that groups advantages and privileges.

Stop this inductive nonsense. Just because you don't think or never seen a Trans person play this game doesn't mean this game is marginalizing or preventing them from playing it. I have introduced this game to many of my friends who are from nations you wouldn't know existed and they play the game like any other.

[smeeprocket]

Let me know when RPGs actually start doing that, and I'll support them.

Don't most? I mean the first RPG video games I think of are the Elder Scrolls and Fallout, neither of which affect stats based on the character's sex.

EDIT: Oh fuck all these ninjas.

no most overly sexualize their women, for starters. But if you look at earlier elder scrolls games, such as morrowind, if you go the house hlaalu route, you can purchase female slaves as wives for your men. And to get hortator, you have to purchase a dunmer female slave to marry the ashlander chieftain of one tribe. It's a very androcentric game.

Oblivion and Skyrim were better, tbh.

Fallout was also done by Bethesda, though it has a history of being neutral on this stuff. Including with sexuality.

The games you are listing are exceptional though, as well as general exceptions to the rule. If you look at most MMOs out there, the clothing, the proportions, everything about women is just demeaning. The entire thing is geared towards gamer males.

Not to mention the overwhelming majority of games that have a male protagonist. And even if you get a powerful female, they devolve into tears when the strong male lead shows up, suddenly unable to help themselves.

edit: just going to ignore the obvious troll account.

Urist, did you really reeeally use WoW as an example? Have you seen the female night elves?

edit: not to mention some of the sexist comments by devs. I got into a debate on an ESO forum about there that ended in a female telling me I was only feminist because I didn't have a man and she "felt sorry for me" christ.

http://comegetthavoodoo.blogspot.com/2014/06/rob-pardo-is-sexist-asshole.html

[Putnam]

You take what I'm saying personally.

You're the one making it personal when you say things like "you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything".

[smeeprocket]

Notice, btw, the comments on that article I posted.

[smeeprocket]

You take what I'm saying personally.

You're the one making it personal when you say things like "you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything".

I am angry, and I am hostile, but that is because I am paying attention. Also I already acknowledged your link and your quote was before that sooo

[Urist Tilaturist]

Female armour and clothing in most RPGs is stupid, I agree. But female player characters are NOT intrinsically different from males in their abilities in WoW or Skyrim as far as I know, unlike in COD or assassin's creed where they do not exist.

And, having seen that linked article, yes, female characters are stupidly sexual when they should not be, but seeing pixel pixies not wearing many clothes does NOT cause shooting rampages. That guy was clearly insane, WoW or not.

[smeeprocket]

Female armour and clothing in most RPGs is stupid, I agree. But female player characters are NOT intrinsically different from males in their abilities in WoW or Skyrim as far as I know, unlike in COD or assassin's creed where they do not exist.

read the article, it details quests and situations in which some of the sexism occurs.

It's harder to notice when it's not about you. Like how I am less likely to notice subtle racism.

I played EQ personally, never WoW. It was fairly androcentric.

I mean, consider how much effort most games put into boob physics alone... these female characters exist solely to let guy gamers stare at their bodies while they play.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/gamesblog/2013/dec/06/ryse-breasts-video-games-physics