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[smeeprocket]

People see what they're used to as normal. Does that surprise you?

Nothing surprises me. It bothers me. It's not as innocuous as that, at any rate. Since matriarchal structures cause gamer to attack the creator by saying they have, as I mentioned, an "Agenda". Really anything that is pro-women is an agenda.

The gamer community hasn't exactly been kind in general to women as of late.

[smeeprocket]

We should make women stronger and make them the ruling class. You know, for something different.

Nobody likes it when it's their gender being oppressed, though, even in video games.

If matriarchal elves are the current system then I am very happy to accept it. Because they are elves, elves can do whatever they like on account of not having real examples that we can study, and I do not get angry at all at seeing males of fictional species in an inferior position, or real species if that reflects how things are.

Having queen goblins with male drones as their slave-soldiers would also be something I would be ready to accept.

But having human females stronger would be like having male hyenas stronger - just plain wrong, and we know it from a sample of 7 billion.

Getting back on topic, I am actually in favour of transgender and intersex dwarves, I just think that humans with no physical dimorphism should not be described as humans since they obviously have different sex chromosomes at least.

Look, we get it, men are superior to women, you don't have to beat your chest anymore.

But this is not real life, so your 7 billion are irrelevant. Humans in the game have no strength differences. This is established. You are wrong.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Men are not superior to women morally or intellectually. They are only really better at killing, maiming and smashing things, but in DF's orgy of horrors which largely revolves around these activities that is what matters a lot so patriarchy will prosper. As societies have become less violent they have also become more open to women's progress. See how the worst places for women are war zones and other barbarous places. But the whole of DF is a war zone and a barbarous place.

This is not just about dimorphism for humans, this is about dimorphism for all creatures that really have it. So stronger female hyenas, matriarchal elephants and bonobos just having a good old sexy time are also in.

Anything that is pro anything has an agenda. People do things for reasons.

I agree that the threats sent to females over the Gamergate nonsense were disgraceful, but I did not send any of them.

[Metalsie]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

[smeeprocket]

Men are not superior to women morally or intellectually. They are only really better at killing, maiming and smashing things, but in DF's orgy of horrors that is what matters a lot so patriarchy will prosper. As societies have become less violent they have also become more open to women's progress. See how the worst places for women are war zones and other barbarous places. But the whole of DF is a war zone and a barbarous place.

This is not just about dimorphism for humans, this is about dimorphism for all creatures that really have it. So stronger female hyenas, matriarchal elephants and bonobos just having a good old sexy time are also in.

Stop trying to justify what is ultimately you want to enforce misogyny into the game, when it is not there.

Oh but hey, hyenas and bonobos will have stronger females, I know I would feel great playing a game as long as THAT is true.

Spare me.

Humans, which are called humans and are the humans in DF regardless of whether you like it or not, do not have sexual dimorphism. If I play adventure mode I don't get a negative or boost to stats via gender.

This is a fantasy game. It is made gender neutral by design. You want to have sexism and oppression, which happens in the real life whether or not you plug your ears and sing really loudly to block it out, in the game. This would make it like every other sexist game out there (and there are so many of them.) Really, if you want to play a game that enforces how awesome you are at being a superior muscly male, go play a game that does that. Play Call of Duty or Assassins Creed. Heck, they couldn't be bothered to put a female character in the co-op for the new one because "females are hard to animate." (Which a past dev has confirmed as bullshit.)

There is so much hostility and animosity towards women in gaming. Anytime I speak out about this stuff, I have to worry about some dude getting a stick up his ass and having me doxxed. I have to worry about rape and murder threats. All of us feminist gamers are scared shitless. We can't even stream without attracting the worst examples of humanity possible.

Why make things more unpleasant and unwelcoming for us? Why alienate us? Do you think it's fun to play inferior in every way gender role in -every single game- out there? That shit gets old.

[smeeprocket]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

[Metalsie]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

[smeeprocket]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

you have apparently not read the rest of the thread. I am exhausted from this cyclical argument and have little patience for it now.

I don't care about perception. I, and others that are not like you and other white, straight, cis-gendered males, have just as much right to inclusion as you and it is not political. It is political for you because you are apathetic to the issue. The rest of us just want to feel like we are part of the game.

If we were to not include men in the game at all would you be okay with that? Or would you make a fuss?

[Putnam]

That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

STOP.

Seriously, I'm on your side here, but holy hell you're making this difficult. This is exactly the kind of shit you should not say under any circumstance. This language adds nothing and makes the discussion far more flammable. It's ad hominem with no point behind it.

Watch this video, which I'm fairly sure you already have. Watch it again. Watch it another time. It's very useful.

Not only that, but you're making awfully large assumptions about other people here. It's only a matter of time until something like this happens to you.

[Dyret]

There is so much hostility and animosity towards women in gaming. Anytime I speak out about this stuff, I have to worry about some dude getting a stick up his ass and having me doxxed. I have to worry about rape and murder threats. All of us feminist gamers are scared shitless. We can't even stream without attracting the worst examples of humanity possible.

In all fairness a lot of this behaviour comes from 14 year old boys, at least if Alanah Pearce's experience is anything to go by. Teenagers are kind of notorious for lacking the part of their brain that lets them relate to people as people.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I'm sorry about the rape and murder threats, but I have no intention of sending you any and strongly disagree with them. I'm sorry about the doxxing fear, but I have no intention of doing that either. Nor do I have any intention of being pegged with a stick, unless it was very well lubricated. I even agree that the Assassin's Creed dev's excuse was a lame cop out.

I already said that men are only superior physically, and that should not matter in a civilised society. It does, but it should not. There is no divine right, just might makes right, and that is a rubbish system.

You are speaking to me as if I almost am one of those lowlifes who gets a hard-on by harassing women. I have no respect for them either. But the good news is that almost none of them ever do anything about it, because most of them are far too cowardly to risk actually physically attacking anyone. How many times have any of these sorry cases actually carrying through one of their threats? Very few, if ever. They are relying on empty threats to drive their targets away. But the way to win is not to treat those who are not part of that minority of male gamers as part of it.

Every single game? Have you not heard of Mass Effect?

I'm bisexual actually...

[Metalsie]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

I disagree, inclusion is highly political and not everyone has the same perception of it as you do. Also, try to calm down, not everyone is out to get you.

you have apparently not read the rest of the thread. I am exhausted from this cyclical argument and have little patience for it now.

I don't care about perception. I, and others that are not like you and other white, straight, cis-gendered males, have just as much right to inclusion as you and it is not political. It is political for you because you are apathetic to the issue. The rest of us just want to feel like we are part of the game.

If we were to not include men in the game at all would you be okay with that? Or would you make a fuss?

I have read the rest of the thread and I disagree with what you think. You are assuming way too much to call others prejudiced since you've already determined that I am white, straight and CiS by nothing but my disagreement with what inclusion is. Also I agreed with the idea, I only stated a problem with it which you obviously ignored.

[pisskop]

I don't believe people should push their identity politics into this game, especially "inclusion", which is very subjective. I do think however that this is a good idea to implement. One problem though is the number of people who will be non-binary pre-world generation and this can cause problems for the creation of new sites for civilizations who had less "breeders". Also, how will the gender of the people born during the world generation be determined? Its unrealistic to depend on random chance since majority of people are straight and cap for the number of non-binary people born will likely be arbitrary.

this game already has homosexuality. And inclusion isn't a politic. That's the problem, you dudes see this as an inconvenienced on your divine right to be at the top of everything.

The rest of us play the games too. You are going to have to start sharing. Get used to it.

'Sharing the game?'

DF may be designed to be sexually neutered, but that hardly means that your want to have more dominant females (and lets face it, this isnt about equality, this is you pushing for female >> male.  DF is already Female=Male) overrides our want to have more biologically realistic sexes in our simulation.  How you think you and yours takes priority over the un-surveyed masses is astounding.  I have stated before that I find your arguments to rely heavily upon emotional appeals and your sense of 'fairness and morality', and I'd appreciate if you backed up your statements with some more constructive points than 'Deal with it'.  Because whether or not your debate partner is using the eloquent terms or not, your arguments are detracting.


Fact is, sexual di-morphism hasn't made its way into this game, and rpgs are pulling it for the sake of being politically correct and appealing to a broader market.  It will likely have to be a mod, so strong advocates of it should make one.

[smeeprocket]

Let me know when RPGs actually start doing that, and I'll support them.

I'm not pushing for female >> male, though if that threatens you, perhaps you might consider that the reverse is equally unpleasant for me.

My point is, you would, and you have shown this now, be displeased if we had women ruling men. But you cite real life to justify male dominance in a fantasy game.

Putnam, I know, I will watch it again. It's just... every time this thread calms down, something else gets said.

[pisskop]

Please provide examples of Male >> Female in vanilla DF.