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[Rez]

I think you're missing the point of the thread: "without Pay 2 Enjoy".

You cannot counter aircraft without spending at least 500 certs or being a virtuoso with tank cannons.
Almost every piece of gear is without question an upgrade over the stock alternative.

No doubt, you can farm that stuff without paying, but you're definitely not going to enjoy yourself unless you like being mowed down by rocket flyboys and fully upgraded tanks.

[Mattk50]

Well, mortal online has an unlimited free trial and a subscription. You cant really compete in pvp with paid guys but because it's so sandboxy the degree to which it matters will depend.

That said, mortal online is super buggy and has problems with GM corruption which the devs don't see as a problem so im not sure why im suggesting it.

[Shadowlord]

That said, mortal online is super buggy and has problems with GM corruption which the devs don't see as a problem so im not sure why im suggesting it.

[sarcasm] GM Corruption: Because it's realistic! [/sarcasm]

[JimboM12]

I think you're missing the point of the thread: "without Pay 2 Enjoy".

You cannot counter aircraft without spending at least 500 certs or being a virtuoso with tank cannons.
Almost every piece of gear is without question an upgrade over the stock alternative.

No doubt, you can farm that stuff without paying, but you're definitely not going to enjoy yourself unless you like being mowed down by rocket flyboys and fully upgraded tanks.

I focused more on the bullshit part, but I get your point. When you're starting out or when you're dropped into a hopeless defense, it happens and it feels unfair, but that's part of the charm (for me at least). You're a beginner. You're 1 in hundreds out there. You have to stick it out, and learn the game, and in the process get certs to help customize your play.
But in terms of bullshit, I think on the whole, PS2 isn't heavily P2W. You have almost as much of a chance as anyone out there. The game is mostly skill based and teamwork oriented, as a lowly BR 23 VS medic with my trusty Corvus rifle, I've taken BR 100's and won (not a whole lot, but still). I would sometimes help others score the kill too, drawing fire so that a squaddie sniper can take him. It's true for vehicles (and MAXes too), investment is important, but starting as support infantry feels fair. I've led the breech in a basically equipped max, scored some kills, and was over-killed hilariously by a bunch of C4.
Perhaps its free and fun that I give it so much slack, but its also the DF mindset too, losing is fun.

[alway]

Yeah, PS2 is pretty good about it. Vehicles most certainly require upgrades to be good, but I suspect that's as much about ensuring a mix of specialties and specialization as it is monetization. Not everyone is supposed to counter aircraft. And all of the important stuff can be gained by playing anyway, it just takes time.

In the infantry side of the game, it all comes down to being sneaky and protecting knowledge of your location like it's your credit card number. Upgrades don't matter there.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Rez]

My issues with PS2 are more with design decisions than with monetization techniques.

I hardly think HA, MAX, Skyguard, and AA-fit FSA are everybody. I don't think HA really count anyway, because the reality was you couldn't kill an FSA with lock-ons if they were decent.  I survived many an AA missile attack without flares by simply flying away to rearm and repair when they were shot at me.  Sometimes I'd outrun them or juke them into a hill; other times I would eat one (or two!) and still land in time to repair.
 

Upgrades don't matter there.

I'd buy this if I didn't use shotguns and battle rifles when I played or if I hadn't watched sunderers survive mass rocket attacks, only to die to a single LA with C4, or if I hadn't seen many vehicle zergs enabled by a single infiltrator with hacking.  Infantry upgrades are the difference between cannon fodder and special forces.

[MasterFancyPants]

Upgrades don't matter there.

I'd buy this if I didn't use shotguns and battle rifles when I played or if I hadn't watched sunderers survive mass rocket attacks, only to die to a single LA with C4, or if I hadn't seen many vehicle zergs enabled by a single infiltrator with hacking.  Infantry upgrades are the difference between cannon fodder and special forces.

You are forgetting to mention that most of those upgrades are only unlockable with certs not cash.

Infantry upgrades are the difference between cannon fodder and special forces.

This is just plain untrue, I have an alt with an infantry K/D of 5 just using the default gear.

[Vendayn]

There are some non-graphical MUDs which have plenty of content and are entirely free with no paid memberships or the like.  The only one I play is one that's nearly defunct, though.  Aardwolf appears to be a popular one though.

I'm curious what MUD you play.  I've recently returned to playing ArcticMUD casually.  Used to be pretty big population wise back in the 90's(anywhere from 400-600 on at a given time) but had died down the past several years to less than 20.  This current playerwipe though has seen a steady population of 30-60 though depending on the time of day.

The DiscMud (forgot exact name, unless it was that)...Discworld MUD or something...was good.

There were some MUDs out there that were like...well...imagine UnrealWorld as a MUD. If you want, I can link you one that I really liked. You'd have to give me time to find it again. It was exactly like UnrealWorld, in gameplay mechanics...a bit more fantasy (well, medieval-like I guess, didn't see any fantasy parts) and a lot of survival. The community was awesome though, but a bit small. There were player-made villages (kinda like SWG player-made cities) and it was really cool. Was heavy on the RP, but it wasn't hardcore or anything...could talk in off topic, but mostly to ask questions. People weren't too uptight about it.

If I recall there was PvP, but most people were just friendly and nice. At least to me as a newbie.

It was an awesome mud...kinda had to make your own fun. Need food? Hunt and stalk a deer. Want to live by a pond in the middle of nowhere? Build a cabin. Want the social life? Be near a city. Weren't very many NPCs (maybe none), so it was all player ran. Player shops, player made items and everything.

Armageddon MUD was a tad similar, but more fantasy/sci-fi...I found it too complicated and hardcore for me. Didn't really like the community either, to be honest. Seemed more...closed in and elitist for me. That was my impression anyway.

[beorn080]

I think you're missing the point of the thread: "without Pay 2 Enjoy".

You cannot counter aircraft without spending at least 500 certs or being a virtuoso with tank cannons.
Almost every piece of gear is without question an upgrade over the stock alternative.

No doubt, you can farm that stuff without paying, but you're definitely not going to enjoy yourself unless you like being mowed down by rocket flyboys and fully upgraded tanks.

I focused more on the bullshit part, but I get your point. When you're starting out or when you're dropped into a hopeless defense, it happens and it feels unfair, but that's part of the charm (for me at least). You're a beginner. You're 1 in hundreds out there. You have to stick it out, and learn the game, and in the process get certs to help customize your play.
But in terms of bullshit, I think on the whole, PS2 isn't heavily P2W. You have almost as much of a chance as anyone out there. The game is mostly skill based and teamwork oriented, as a lowly BR 23 VS medic with my trusty Corvus rifle, I've taken BR 100's and won (not a whole lot, but still). I would sometimes help others score the kill too, drawing fire so that a squaddie sniper can take him. It's true for vehicles (and MAXes too), investment is important, but starting as support infantry feels fair. I've led the breech in a basically equipped max, scored some kills, and was over-killed hilariously by a bunch of C4.
Perhaps its free and fun that I give it so much slack, but its also the DF mindset too, losing is fun.

Skill has a LOT more to do with it then equipment. As well as knowing when to take your toys and leave. Being a spawn room hero, while safe, is not a good way to get certs or win back bases, though it can be fun in certain bases where firing lines and enemy cover are such that you can chuck grenades or get in shots.

My recommendations for it. Play Vanu. No bullet drop is a WONDERFUL thing, though it does render learning how to use the Commissioner a bit tricky. Try to stick as an engineer or a medic initially. Upgrade your medic and engineer tool. Faster repairs/ressing makes for MUCH faster certs. As an engineer, your turret is as useful, if not more so, as mobile cover, rather then an actual gun. You can VERY easily be headshot while using it, however crouching behind it renders you pretty darn safe, with a good view. If you are playing Vanu, find a magrider and jump in. Learn the PPA, love the PPA. It is easily the best AI weapon in the game, on the best AI tank in the game. Sadly, the Mag sucks against other tanks. And finally, expect to die. A lot. To really annoying things. Yes, Lolpods may seem to be a wonderful infantry farming tool, but the fiftieth time you get sniped by an AP using tank at 200 meters, you realize that rockets aren't actually that bad.

[Biowraith]

Since games like Path of Exile and Planetside 2 have been suggested, I'm going to mention Marvel Heroes 2105.  It's a fairly casual ARPG with some MMO elements (but not a full blown MMO).  I'm not sure what the general consensus is on it as a good/bad game around here, although it seems to do quite well in reviews, player and otherwise.  But within the context of this thread, I think it qualifies as not being Pay 2 Enjoy.

The main things you can buy with cash are unlocking new heroes to play (there's about 40 available), alternative costumes/looks for your heroes, boosts, and stash space. 

New heroes can be earned through a resource that drops from killing any enemy - time to unlock depends whether you go for random heroes (cheapest) or specific heroes (price varies), but going the random route I've been unlocking them faster than I can play them to level cap.  They also recently altered the newbie experience to let everyone play the ~10 starter heroes up to level 10, along with enough in-game resource to buy 1-2 heroes from the 2nd day they log in.

Costumes seem to be somewhat harder to unlock through play, but I've not actually tried to unlock one so I'm not sure.  Seems to involve a lot of farming and luck though. 

Boosts (xp, rare item find, special item find) can be gained semi-randomly via a resource earned running 'terminal' missions, a handful from specific story missions, and the devs frequently release promotional codes that give free boosts (most of which they'll email you if you're on the mailing list). There's also pretty much always one event or another running, some of which give server-wide boosts.

Stash space is the only thing from the cash shop that you can't earn in game.  The free allowance of stash space is pretty limited though - you definitely feel the hurt there if you play beyond the short term (it's not essential to enjoy the game, but with all the crafting components, boosts, and gear for all the different heroes dropping, there's a lot of scope for hoarding and very little default space to hoard it in).

[Flying Dice]

Upgrades don't matter there.

I'd buy this if I didn't use shotguns and battle rifles when I played or if I hadn't watched sunderers survive mass rocket attacks, only to die to a single LA with C4, or if I hadn't seen many vehicle zergs enabled by a single infiltrator with hacking.  Infantry upgrades are the difference between cannon fodder and special forces.

You are forgetting to mention that most of those upgrades are only unlockable with certs not cash.

Infantry upgrades are the difference between cannon fodder and special forces.

This is just plain untrue, I have an alt with an infantry K/D of 5 just using the default gear.

This. The only things you can buy with cash are cosmetics and the base frames of guns. Not to mention that most of the infantry weapons are sidegrames; more than a few of the defaults are some of the best options available. Take the Gauss SAW, it was one of the best weapons in the game, to the point where it needed a nerf just to avoid being completely stifling. The vehicle weapons are upgrades, but in the sense of generalist -> specialist in most cases.

At any rate, cert gain is massively easier now than it used to be. In the early days I remember taking literal weeks of play to grind out a 1000 cert gun, but the last time I got on, I did that in maybe three or four days. It goes even faster if you find a good group instead of just piddling around being a pubstar.

Besides, PS2 has the same thing going for it as Warframe: it's an FPS first and foremost, with the RPG unlocking elements as a secondary feature. Warframe's also even more into the sidegrade stuff; warframes themselves are by far the most time-consuming thing to grind out, and the starter frame selection includes some of the best in the game. The Excalibur in particular is great: easy to use and learn, good for solo players (though not the best), and it has one of the best mass CC abilities in the game.

[Intrinsic]

A 2nd for Rift, and if you want any of the paid aspects you can buy them with in game currency(basically buy what is called a REX with gold which gives you a chunk of RL cash currency) so you don't have to spend a penny!