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[MDFification]

I seem recall an episode of M*A*S*H where British troops with abdominal wounds were given tea for tea time and when they made it to the operating room they had additional problems, as this increased the chance of infection and death. It's the reasoning I've always used for why dwarf patients aren't given alcohol.

Except they will give dwarves muddy and stagnant water to drink or wash wounds instead.

That's a case of its better than nothing.

Alcohol causes dehydration in virtually every part of the body, and impairs functionality of, well, pretty much everything on a temporary basis. Why you don't want someone about to undergo surgery to quaff a barrel of dwarven rum is obvious.

I agree that it should be possible to use alcohol to clean wounds, but only once it's been heated. Boiling wine was used in roman times to clean wounds and prevent infection. So until we can figure out a system to boil alcohol...

[GavJ]

You only needed to boil wine due to it being chronically dilute compared to what we are used to. Since dwarves pretty obviously seem to have different livers than we do, I don't think we can assume that they're all drinking small beer and watered wine all the time. They may well be taking everything full strength, and that would be fine for hospitals as well.

HOWEVER, water should need to be accounted for in the creation of that alcohol in the first place. Yes fine for fruit, it might be reasonable to not add water. Might be. For mushrooms and grains, etc. there should be a bucket of water in the reaction.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I agree with brewing grains requiring water. Certain industrial processes should also require it - steel should be quenched or annealed, for example.

[Badger Storm]

Really, water would be needed for quite a few labors.  Water is vital to ceramics, acting as glue, keeping the clay from drying out, and lubricating the hands when throwing with a wheel.  Dye is combined with water in the dyepot.  You use water to make a lot of dishes, including stews.  You can see where I'm going with this...

[GoblinCookie]

You only needed to boil wine due to it being chronically dilute compared to what we are used to. Since dwarves pretty obviously seem to have different livers than we do, I don't think we can assume that they're all drinking small beer and watered wine all the time. They may well be taking everything full strength, and that would be fine for hospitals as well.

HOWEVER, water should need to be accounted for in the creation of that alcohol in the first place. Yes fine for fruit, it might be reasonable to not add water. Might be. For mushrooms and grains, etc. there should be a bucket of water in the reaction.

We need a means of acquiring water, at the moment the only way is wells and rivers.  If you do not have an aquifer or a river then how do you get water for all these processes?

[Vattic]

We need a means of acquiring water, at the moment the only way is wells and rivers.  If you do not have an aquifer or a river then how do you get water for all these processes?

Limiting survivability in some areas because of a lack of water makes sense and adds to the game; Some relish the challenge. It's far easier to find water since the caverns were added. Toady has mentioned wanting underground rivers back and collecting rain is something I suspect he wouldn't mind adding.

[Niddhoger]

I seem recall an episode of M*A*S*H where British troops with abdominal wounds were given tea for tea time and when they made it to the operating room they had additional problems, as this increased the chance of infection and death. It's the reasoning I've always used for why dwarf patients aren't given alcohol.

That's just standard operating procedure before major operations.  No food or drink by mouth for 12 something hours beforehand.  The idea is that your intestinal track and stomach both need to be empty before undergoing anesthesia... as otherwise bad  things tend to happen (throwing up into your lungs being one of the more fun ones).

That being said, alcohol was the worlds first anesthetic (aside from clubbing someone maybe).  So you actually DO want Urist to down a keg of beer before surgery to numb the pain and keep him from clenching up.  This is different from the above, because just using alcohol isn't the same as a medically induced coma (typical anesthesia).  Its just ment to numb the pain while the patient stays semi-conscious.

However if we are really going to get into wound cleaning, the preferred options are salt water with a dash of iodine.  Barring that, vinegar and honey would be better options than pouring vodka on a wound, actually.  Honey is in the game, and technically salt is in the form of rock salt "stone" and (undrinkable) salt water.  Vinegar would be easy enough to make at the distillery- its basically anything booze taken a step further.  Booze is sugar fermented into ethanol... vinegar is simply ethanol fermented into acetic acid.  Vinegar, salt, and honey are also great options for preserving food. So adding them as medical options would just be one more step towards realistic food preservation as well.  A little off topic... but its just crazy to think that intestines can lie on the ground exposed to the elements for YEARS without rotting, so long as that ground is marked as "food stockpile."

[Niddhoger]

We need a means of acquiring water, at the moment the only way is wells and rivers.  If you do not have an aquifer or a river then how do you get water for all these processes?

Limiting survivability in some areas because of a lack of water makes sense and adds to the game; Some relish the challenge. It's far easier to find water since the caverns were added. Toady has mentioned wanting underground rivers back and collecting rain is something I suspect he wouldn't mind adding.

Except that most areas lacking an aquifer, river, lake, etc are arid regions that simply don't get much rain.  A "rocky wasteland" can't get much more than a couple inches of rain a year, afterall.  Its fine to just dig into the cavern for it, however.  I would also like the option for ice blocks to actual melt into water.  7 units of water brought to a glacier immediately freezes.  Take that same iceblock back below ground... and it becomes an unusable puddle that doesn't even count for farm irrigation. 

As far as ways to get water in these arid environments... there are moisture traps to collect dew/what little water exists in the atmosphere, but if the air rocks a solid 0% humidity most days this obviously won't work.  Other ways would be to squeeze water out of cactus and possibly blood from any critters you capture.  Most foods have a little water in them as well.  Its perfectly healthy to eat a plate of fruits all day and not drink any water (since you are getting more than enough from said fruits).  We'd have to be able to barrel liquids again and bring stores of water with you beforehand, then make a priority out of digging into the cavern layer.  You can safely breech the caverns and then wall off a section to serve as your water source, however there is always the risk of FUN when dealing with the caverns. 

[smeeprocket]

That injured dwarves only get water seems like an added layer of torture on an already bad situation :> Booze should be the priority drink for patients, as always, with water being secondary, as usual

...

Anyway, +1 for equal drinking rights for injured dwarves! End the abuse!

I seem recall an episode of M*A*S*H where British troops with abdominal wounds were given tea for tea time and when they made it to the operating room they had additional problems, as this increased the chance of infection and death. It's the reasoning I've always used for why dwarf patients aren't given alcohol.

That's actually because you shouldn't have anything in your stomach during surgery, tea, booze, or water. Anytime I have gone in for surgery I have been told not to take anything about 12 hours in advance. Once I had a small glass of water and admitted it and they rescheduled the whole thing.

[GavJ]

Yes I think being allowed to embark with water is fine. Costs no more than the barrel it comes in (though higher weight if that's a thing in embark, don't remember) for water.

That would address most or all climate situations in terms of at least being POSSIBLE to play in.

[SixOfSpades]

Another must-have: The ability to purify water (salty, muddy, or both) by running it through the still, not some magic screw pump. Also an excellent source of salt, if appropriate.

[GavJ]

stills also need to use fuel while we're at it. Magma stills are acceptable if available as alternatives, of course. I would say solar stills too, but that's a little... elfish.

No need for refined fuel, wood is fine (OR refined fuel)

[utunnels]

Stills and kitchens.

[Urist Tilaturist]

These suggestions all seem very good. All industrial processes which need water should use it. I am sure most of us are in favour of more !!fun!! in arid areas, where dwarves must dig into caverns to access water essential for survival.

The still should purify water, though pure water is only necessary for brewing, cleaning and drinking. Industry can use muddy cave water.

[GavJ]

pure water

Medieval people didn't know what pure water was / that this is what made it safe. Booze was safe, so they drank (low proof) booze, that's all. In some places, if natural water was safe too, they'd drink that. But just cause they knew people didn't get sick from it, not because they had hydrologists go test it for cryptosporidium, etc.

Anyway, actively purifying and then storing separately water by boiling, etc. wouldn't have been a thing either way.