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[Devastator]

Also, Syv, I do like your reasoning as to why you'd be a god at computers simply because you've been using one for a year.  I suppose everyone must be a god of doctoring just because of living inside a live body for years?

Plus I don't think you've spent that one year building an entirely new operating environment for the millions of nodes in the Hep intranet.  Not to mention the code for those thousands of different kinds of internal actors.  Not to mention ARESSTEVE, which is the reason why nobody actually has to do that.  Coulda just been a year of cat videos, for all that hep needed upkeep.

[Devastator]

Well, you're taking too long to decide on something worthwhile, and since I consider the design at least as balanced as existing gear, I see no problem with putting it through trials. Like I said earlier, either change all gear to this new balancing system of yours, or stop hammering down on new hardware.

Consider this a mutiny. (Or a vote of no confidence, or an impeachment, whichever works for you. )

What do you want, man, a number?  I think it'd be fine at like 24 for a single version, saving 3 tokens, or 30 for a dual, saving 9 tokens.  I really don't see why things strapped to suits should be massively discounted, just because suits are, or why taking approved features off suits should be given full token credit..  because by that logic, a no-PEW variant of the PEW assault suit would be all of one token.

If you want me to support cheap, come up with design improvements based around cheapening something rather than making it work better.

[Unholy_Pariah]

Well, you're taking too long to decide on something worthwhile, and since I consider the design at least as balanced as existing gear, I see no problem with putting it through trials. Like I said earlier, either change all gear to this new balancing system of yours, or stop hammering down on new hardware.

Consider this a mutiny. (Or a vote of no confidence, or an impeachment, whichever works for you. )

What do you want, man, a number?  I think it'd be fine at like 24 for a single version, saving 3 tokens, or 30 for a dual, saving 9 tokens.  I really don't see why things strapped to suits should be massively discounted, just because suits are, or why taking approved features off suits should be given full token credit..  because by that logic, a no-PEW variant of the PEW assault suit would be all of one token.

If you want me to support cheap, come up with design improvements based around cheapening something rather than making it work better.

how about instead of sean giving you reasons why it should be cheaper to combine technologies instead of buying them seperately and retrofitting them... you start giving reasons as to why it shouldnt?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, you're taking too long to decide on something worthwhile, and since I consider the design at least as balanced as existing gear, I see no problem with putting it through trials. Like I said earlier, either change all gear to this new balancing system of yours, or stop hammering down on new hardware.

Consider this a mutiny. (Or a vote of no confidence, or an impeachment, whichever works for you. )

What do you want, man, a number?  I think it'd be fine at like 24 for a single version, saving 3 tokens, or 30 for a dual, saving 9 tokens.  I really don't see why things strapped to suits should be massively discounted, just because suits are, or why taking approved features off suits should be given full token credit..  because by that logic, a no-PEW variant of the PEW assault suit would be all of one token.

If you want me to support cheap, come up with design improvements based around cheapening something rather than making it work better.

There should be no improvements based around making it cheaper. It's not a box of 2 PEWs bundled with an AS, it's literally all one weapon system. The current pricing system does not work the way you want it to, equipment that is "in effect" a combination of other equipment does not get priced around how expensive the equipment is individually, because by that logic a Mk3 would cost ~20 token, and a battlesuit would cost ~40. Neither is it priced by how expensive it is to make, even if it is, inherently, a factor. Token cost reflects one thing and one thing only - how powerful and/or dangerous the item is to have someone wield. It's nigh literally brownie points you have with the ARM/HMRC/Steve. As such, a lot of the costs are arbitrary.

As I said before, either get PW to overhaul the entire armory for this linear cost progression of yours, or start grokking tailor-balancing. (And keep in mind I'll be designing mechsuits to fill the AS/-/Avatar firepower gap in the future )

[Corsair]

Well, you're taking too long to decide on something worthwhile, and since I consider the design at least as balanced as existing gear, I see no problem with putting it through trials. Like I said earlier, either change all gear to this new balancing system of yours, or stop hammering down on new hardware.

Consider this a mutiny. (Or a vote of no confidence, or an impeachment, whichever works for you. )

What do you want, man, a number?  I think it'd be fine at like 24 for a single version, saving 3 tokens, or 30 for a dual, saving 9 tokens.  I really don't see why things strapped to suits should be massively discounted, just because suits are, or why taking approved features off suits should be given full token credit..  because by that logic, a no-PEW variant of the PEW assault suit would be all of one token.

If you want me to support cheap, come up with design improvements based around cheapening something rather than making it work better.

how about instead of sean giving you reasons why it should be cheaper to combine technologies instead of buying them seperately and retrofitting them... you start giving reasons as to why it shouldnt?

Now having looked at the assaultsuit page on the wiki it doesn't include any weapons other than kin-amp fists, how, with a basic model is someone meant to attack at range? Am I able to trade them for guns instead?

Also a note on price considerations; for 15 tokens a basic battle suit can come with either no weapons other than k-amp fists or a bigger LESHO with nuclear rounds both for the same price (at least as far as the wiki notes).


@Sean

Always happy to test any prototypes you produce

[Nikitian]

Let me add that Maurice would happily accept and approve prototyping the PEWPEW assaultsuit - actually, he's considering to take it to that missing college mission, hoping for a rift large enough and in case anything like a Wyrm of M6 is awaiting out there.

As for the token price - Sean is right, tokens don't add up. The real price of a battlesuit is somewhere in the hundred(s) of tokens, as I recall from before; both the mass-production discount and the nature of tokens go towards the semi-exponential nature of theirs - which can be literally considered as a measure of "Steve's trust", for it serves that purpose better than anything. Furthermore, in the recent pricing trend, prices have been lessened even more - partly because it's the trend, partly because the equipment skill requirements are more widespread now. In effect? Tokens value is increasing over time.

Finally, I have already demonstrated that real suit-integrated PEW resource-cost is (roughly) somewhere around 2-5 tokens per item; that alone adds up to 15-token assaultsuit variant.

All in all, it's a long-standing ER rule that a package is both greater and significantly cheaper than a sum of its parts; all the best Pw's designs are based on it.
@Corsair As a general rule, battlesuits/assaultsuits come without weapons installed; just like with regular Mk-/MCP-series suits, weapons are purchased separately. Kinamps of assaultsuits are more of 'defensive systems'/'features'; integrated weapons are more of an exception, and it usually has to trade some of the suit's functionality - so those happen only in the very rare cases where doing so utilises the synergy of such solution extremely well.
@syvarris That is why I brought up that hint (in its entirety, it was a really short one), after all - doing otherwise might endanger not only me, but Hephaestus security and effectiveness as well.

Now, knowing Piecewise's love of maiming and torturing us, and the possibility that they might be sent to the Sword (as well as participate in off-world missions like the missing college one), it appears practical and competent to install the shock-implants - I mean, even on the Hephaestus Administrators have them (never mind not ever being used), why should such gifted and potentially dangerous people be exempt? It can probably be timed to somewhere between 12 and 16 years old when they are finally allowed to work on the real projects alongside Science Teams (and most importantly, cleared for Apocalypse Lab). Then we'll have ARESTEVE watch them the way Steve watches us on the Sword, and hopefully, that would be it. (I presume that we have sufficiently nigh-complete ARESTEVE camera coverage of the base? If not, that might have to be addressed as well.)

Now, were there any more topics/questions left hanging?.. 

[Radio Controlled]

@RC: I can't think of anything to add. If you can do the formal writeup for the Medibox that would be nice.

Ok for me, but is it a problem if I wait with that until all the details are worked out with pw? No problem with doing it, but wouldn't wanna do the same thing twice (because lazy!)

Also nice to see such enthusiasm, seems the team fund won't even have to lift a finger this time (more lazy!)

It's a great option (although I'd still prefer mobility), but the council has basically vetoed it for (poorly thought out >.>) reasons.  You can wait for it, but it might not ever exist, so that's probably not a good plan.

Ack! Syv, you wound me! But seriously, one might not agree with the decision, but that doesn't mean it was 'poorly thought out', you can be certain the matter was discussed with all the attention it deserves.

Actually, the Council has only vetoed mass production at the moment, since the only problem is pricing. They have no power over prototypes. Anton will still create a prototype and send it to the Sword, as trade for the Pyramid Artifact that he'll need in his research to improve on the PEW.

Hmm. Assuming, for a second, that pw will even allow items that aren't approved to still get a prototype somehow, there is still the matter that the team fund is what hands out the prototypes, and that prototypes are temporary, not owned. Finally, I wonder if it should be allowed for Hep people to trade with things they didn't buy with personal tokens. What's stopping one from trading a dozen battlesuits for the next interesting nyartifact?

Well, you're taking too long to decide on something worthwhile, and since I consider the design at least as balanced as existing gear, I see no problem with putting it through trials. Like I said earlier, either change all gear to this new balancing system of yours, or stop hammering down on new hardware.

Consider this a mutiny. (Or a vote of no confidence, or an impeachment, whichever works for you. )

Again, there was a counteroffer, but it was about in the same range as what was quoted before, and you shot that down. Also, people, never forget that if you disagree with the council, you disagree with pw! He was explicitly asked if he disagreed, and he didn't. As for why it shouldn't get a prototype: what is to stop one, if this gets through, from building a variant with ten gauss cannons and (after rightfully being told it's too expensive) just handing it out as a prototype for a mission? And after that, why, I can give one with a couple plasma launchers, why not! And then one with some of both! Free suits for all!   

There should be no improvements based around making it cheaper. It's not a box of 2 PEWs bundled with an AS, it's literally all one weapon system. The current pricing system does not work the way you want it to, equipment that is "in effect" a combination of other equipment does not get priced around how expensive the equipment is individually, because by that logic a Mk3 would cost ~20 token, and a battlesuit would cost ~40. Neither is it priced by how expensive it is to make, even if it is, inherently, a factor. Token cost reflects one thing and one thing only - how powerful and/or dangerous the item is to have someone wield. It's nigh literally brownie points you have with the ARM/HMRC/Steve. As such, a lot of the costs are arbitrary.

Assuming we say all of that is true, we still come to the problem this idea wanted too much power for too little cost. Next to that, if tokens didn't represent resources a little, then why are harmless items not free (medkits, scout eyes, etc)? Hell, why is scrap metal, beyond the first few pounds, not free?

As I said before, either get PW to overhaul the entire armory for this linear cost progression of yours, or start grokking tailor-balancing. (And keep in mind I'll be designing mechsuits to fill the AS/-/Avatar firepower gap in the future )

And as I said before, do you really want to bother pw with retro-active balancing everything? I'd love to, but I'm pretty sure that would lead to a series of computer banks overloading and exploding somewhere in Alaska.

As for the token price - Sean is right, tokens don't add up. The real price of a battlesuit is somewhere in the hundred(s) of tokens, as I recall from before; both the mass-production discount and the nature of tokens go towards the semi-exponential nature of theirs - which can be literally considered as a measure of "Steve's trust", for it serves that purpose better than anything. Furthermore, in the recent pricing trend, prices have been lessened even more - partly because it's the trend, partly because the equipment skill requirements are more widespread now. In effect? Tokens value is increasing over time.
Finally, I have already demonstrated that real suit-integrated PEW resource-cost is (roughly) somewhere around 2-5 tokens per item; that alone adds up to 15-token assaultsuit variant.
All in all, it's a long-standing ER rule that a package is both greater and significantly cheaper than a sum of its parts; all the best Pw's designs are based on it.

Isn't your reasoning based on what parts/resources the PEW uses, and therefore doesn't rhyme with 'tokens represent power only'? Secondly even then, we still come to the conclusion that the council, and pw, thought it was too much power for too little cost. That would mean the core principle stands, but that it wasn't applied well enough in this case.

[Unholy_Pariah]

never forget that if you disagree with the council, you disagree with pw!

My "Arrogant twat" detector just fucking exploded.

No... just no... If you disagree with the council you disagree with the goddamn council. Piecewise can speak for himself.

[Nikitian]

First, unfortunately there is a wide gulf between "not disagreeing with something" and "completely agreeing and approving as if he came up with the idea himself": it is a neutral gray zone of "yeah, whatever" and that is where opposing the Council does not mean opposing Piecewise himself. Yes, there are individuals for whom such zone is very very small or nonexistent at all, but in all honesty, I wouldn't say Piecewise is crazy-convicted enough for him to be among them; he's far too reasonable and 'normal'.

Second, wait, do you really support that re-balancing suggestion? Because I am pretty sure it was made in half-jest; linear prices would be the opposite of what ER has long been, and at the very least it would make for a very different game. Do you want that? Because what Sean 'suggested' goes far and wide beyond mere 're-balancing' of prices (within the same 'game') - that has actually happened not so long ago, and supposedly to certain degree of success.

Third, I never said that tokens represent power only; if that was so, there would be no economical balance and reason to Tinkering whatsoever. What I said is that the current token system deliberately portrays that "Steve's trust" by utilizing a more complex value equation between resources spent and tokens price - the "semi-exponential" system I've brought up so many times before. So yes, if it adds up that PEWPEW part of Sean's assaultsuit variant is really cheap in resources, then so be it - the power levels will have to adjust. The council should have in mind that you yourself brought upon us an era of advanced weapon power, with "blaster weapons" drastically better and cheaper than comparable items from before.
(For the record - yes, I believe that Syv's original design of Testament should have not been nerfed just on grounds of 'balance'; balance is a nice and useful human concept, but it has nothing to do with the nature/world and its laws. We can maybe tweak the prices and so on more or less a little bit, but if we stop following the direct resource expenditure, Tinker is dead, and all designing too. And that has long been one of the main compelling things about the ER - how unforgiving and uncaring ERverse really is, much more realistic in that than many other settings.)

Edit: Yeah, what Unholy said (more or less; I didn't see it that arrogant, but my sensors aren't that fine-tuned). Plus the reasoning I outlined above in the first point.

Piecewise can speak for himself.

Also, a sudden inspiration!
"We don't need no Shadow Council/We don't need no thought control"

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hmm. Assuming, for a second, that pw will even allow items that aren't approved to still get a prototype somehow, there is still the matter that the team fund is what hands out the prototypes, and that prototypes are temporary, not owned. Finally, I wonder if it should be allowed for Hep people to trade with things they didn't buy with personal tokens. What's stopping one from trading a dozen battlesuits for the next interesting nyartifact?

<snip>

Again, there was a counteroffer, but it was about in the same range as what was quoted before, and you shot that down. Also, people, never forget that if you disagree with the council, you disagree with pw! He was explicitly asked if he disagreed, and he didn't. As for why it shouldn't get a prototype: what is to stop one, if this gets through, from building a variant with ten gauss cannons and (after rightfully being told it's too expensive) just handing it out as a prototype for a mission? And after that, why, I can give one with a couple plasma launchers, why not! And then one with some of both! Free suits for all!   

In this case, I am trading not just the suit, but the testbed for all the technology that's going to be made with the help of the artifact it's being traded for, and the exclusive right to test it. It's not going into the team fund. It's going to the one specific person that the exchange occurs with, and it can't be traded, so it doesn't have a token value anyway.

Do recall, the design itself is not vetoed. The design was cleared with PW. The Council handles whether or not the design enters the Armory, nothing more. I am fine with it not entering the Armory in the near future - for one, it isn't even complete. But Anton can't offer tokens for the artifact - procured in this case with actual danger to life and limb - nor is he going to offer any regular equipment. But since he will have the suit made anyway, as a testbed for his future improvements to the energy weapons line, he can ship it off for preliminary testing. It was already agreed on that if the suit survives, and new developments happen that require it to be upgraded, the suit will be sent back to Heph for upgrades.

In short, it's a one-of-a-kind deal. And PW already provides weaponized variants - at no extra cost, I might add; there's no reason for me to design them. The whole debacle about cost is on the off chance the design as it is proves good enough to be armory equipment. In which case, by the by, I still stand by my assessment - 20 tokens is the correct price for the suit according to current pricing methods.

Assuming we say all of that is true, we still come to the problem this idea wanted too much power for too little cost. Next to that, if tokens didn't represent resources a little, then why are harmless items not free (medkits, scout eyes, etc)? Hell, why is scrap metal, beyond the first few pounds, not free?

Because anything that's completely free can be abused. And like I said, resources are still a factor, and prices are still largely arbitrary. You could make a case for basic medkits being cheaper than they are, sure. But scout eyes, harmless?

* Sean Mirrsen recalls the first injury in Mission 1 being inflicted on Faith by a misaimed scout-eye.

Uh-huh.
You get repairs for free, and refuels for your rockets as well. Materials cost is ephemeral. What's being evaluated is usefulness.

As I said before, either get PW to overhaul the entire armory for this linear cost progression of yours, or start grokking tailor-balancing. (And keep in mind I'll be designing mechsuits to fill the AS/-/Avatar firepower gap in the future )

And as I said before, do you really want to bother pw with retro-active balancing everything? I'd love to, but I'm pretty sure that would lead to a series of computer banks overloading and exploding somewhere in Alaska.

Of course I don't want to bother him with it. That's the point. Either do the unreasonable impossible thing (change the pricing system), or the logical minimal-effort thing (conform to existing pricing method). The phrase is meant to imply that the second option is the one you're supposed to pick.

[Parisbre56]

Don't battlesuits cost 15 tokens with the new system?

[Nikitian]

The Council handles whether or not the design enters the Armory, nothing more.

Small nitpick: it is not the Council that handles whether or not the design enters the Armory. Handling that decision is the (often superficial, but nonetheless important) privilege of the Head of Engineering. The Council handles the half-meta transition from 'here we have a design, it costs about this' to 'here we have a design, it costs exactly this'. Which can, on occasion, be skipped if Piecewise gives concrete price numbers on the spot.

Don't battlesuits cost 15 tokens with the new system?

Yep. And yep, their integrated-weapon variants do indeed pack far more firepower than the armor+weapon cost would indicate.

[Parisbre56]

Which can, on occasion, be skipped if Piecewise gives concrete price numbers on the spot.

True. He did give the new numbers for Milnoplate, for example, and those needed no council approval.

[Radio Controlled]

never forget that if you disagree with the council, you disagree with pw!

My "Arrogant twat" detector just fucking exploded.

No... just no... If you disagree with the council you disagree with the goddamn council. Piecewise can speak for himself.

Let's stay civil here. If I literally ask pw 'anyg other proposal you'd like to offer' and he says no, and if I ask 'do you disagree with our conclusion' and he doesn't, what more can we offer in terms of pw agreement?

Second, wait, do you really support that re-balancing suggestion? Because I am pretty sure it was made in half-jest; linear prices would be the opposite of what ER has long been, and at the very least it would make for a very different game. Do you want that? Because what Sean 'suggested' goes far and wide beyond mere 're-balancing' of prices (within the same 'game') - that has actually happened not so long ago, and supposedly to certain degree of success.

Nah, we won't be rebalancing everything, that'd be insane. But that doesn't mean there aren't some thing I think could use some tweaking, but because it was pw made (and thus, pw approved) I won't be bothering him with it.

Third, I never said that tokens represent power only; if that was so, there would be no economical balance and reason to Tinkering whatsoever. What I said is that the current token system deliberately portrays that "Steve's trust" by utilizing a more complex value equation between resources spent and tokens price - the "semi-exponential" system I've brought up so many times before.

The question remains, why doesn't Steve trust us enough to just give out a basic medkit?

So yes, if it adds up that PEWPEW part of Sean's assaultsuit variant is really cheap in resources, then so be it - the power levels will have to adjust. The council should have in mind that you yourself brought upon us an era of advanced weapon power, with "blaster weapons" drastically better and cheaper than comparable items from before.
(For the record - yes, I believe that Syv's original design of Testament should have not been nerfed just on grounds of 'balance'; balance is a nice and useful human concept, but it has nothing to do with the nature/world and its laws. We can maybe tweak the prices and so on more or less a little bit, but if we stop following the direct resource expenditure, Tinker is dead, and all designing too. And that has long been one of the main compelling things about the ER - how unforgiving and uncaring ERverse really is, much more realistic in that than many other settings.)

And again, even accounting for all the arguments, we still get to the same conclusion: the council thinks Sean wanted to much for too little.

Of course I don't want to bother him with it. That's the point. Either do the unreasonable impossible thing (change the pricing system), or the logical minimal-effort thing (conform to existing pricing method). The phrase is meant to imply that the second option is the one you're supposed to pick.

Or, maybe, try to balance things as best as we can, and let pw break his own game when he feels like it 

In this case, I am trading not just the suit, but the testbed for all the technology that's going to be made with the help of the artifact it's being traded for, and the exclusive right to test it. It's not going into the team fund. It's going to the one specific person that the exchange occurs with, and it can't be traded, so it doesn't have a token value anyway.

Again, though, what prevents the scenario I described, free suits for all? The fact that this is unique? Then how do we judge subsequent cases? Completely case-by-case then? You have 9 tokens, says the wiki, why not just pay him for the artifact? Why not ask the team fund to buy the pyramid and send to Hep?

The Council handles whether or not the design enters the Armory, nothing more.

Not even that. The council has no power! We just advise pw, and if he agrees, report our findings. PW can easily veto the veto, but chose not to.

[AoshimaMichio]

I thought council's job was to see if tinkered design can even work in first place? Did their job description change at some point?