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[Nikitian]

My bad on CD longcoat price. Yeah, then I totally get the three-token armor reasoning.

I do believe this is where we disconnect.  I just don't think doing the same thing by a slightly different method will actually result in it being cheaper.  The designing them to be very different, just to justify the strategy seems... dishonest?  Cheaty?  Inefficient, because we're hampering the original design?

"Meta", and yeah, my bad again. I tried to think of a way it to be reasonable to allow from GM's point, and mostly forgot about IC perspective. And, well, if 1/3 token price for the armor in question is deemed acceptable as is, completely irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but I just find this statement funny.  The purpose of this cheap armor, and somehow the five-token MCP.II, is to... trick people into not dying?
...if someone decides to forgo armor so that they can buy a nuke or something, do we really need them to survive?

Yeah, it's kinda funny at that. The main problem we have to deal here with is that this is (was) the HMRC, and that sort of idiotic behavior is to be expected. Furthermore, sometimes there are just too few tokens to spend on being reasonable and cautious (even while trying to be effective/competent) - thus I seek to lower the bar on that as much as possible.

I'd daresay it's impossible for it to be more protective than a heavy robobody (This is what you meant by a mini battlesuit, right?).  The HRB was explicitly designed to be as large as possible while still fitting through a door, and is practically solid battlesuit plate all the way through.  If the protectorate suit is more protective, then it would need vastly more effective armor, which means it's vastly more expensive.

Yeah, that heavy robobody is probably still more protective just by design, but (if I am not mistaken on protection level and size) the Protectorare suit could be used in a very similar role by not-brain-in-a-jar people. In many cases, it does not matter whether you have (say) four layers of battlesuit armor or just two?
Also, with our newfound reliance on robosods, an upgraded variant of Protectorate suit would be more former inmate-oriented rather than for sod use (which was, if I remember correctly, one of the main ideas for the heavy robobody of yours).

[syvarris]

@Radio

Battlesuits just don't use exoskeletons.  When I first started designing the HRB, I started with an exoskeleton.  PW said that all those exoskeletons need a physical body inside of them to operate, or they just collapse, so just directly building robotic arms would be the most efficient way to construct it.

I'm not saying that we couldn't strengthen the battlesuits, I'm just saying that the exoskeletons don't work like you think they do.


@Nik

Yeah, it's kinda funny at that. The main problem we have to deal here with is that this is (was) the HMRC, and that sort of idiotic behavior is to be expected. Furthermore, sometimes there are just too few tokens to spend on being reasonable and cautious (even while trying to be effective/competent) - thus I seek to lower the bar on that as much as possible.

Mm.  True, plus weapons are often a lot more obvious choices for purchase than armor.  Right now, pretty much the entirety of our conventional weapons are well known and understood, but the only armor that is affordable and well known is the CDL.  Milnoplate and battlesuits are just too expensive to be a common purchase.

I do agree with you that having the lightest armor be one token is best.

Yeah, that heavy robobody is probably still more protective just by design, but (if I am not mistaken on protection level and size) the Protectorare suit could be used in a very similar role by not-brain-in-a-jar people. In many cases, it does not matter whether you have (say) four layers of battlesuit armor or just two?
Also, with our newfound reliance on robosods, an upgraded variant of Protectorate suit would be more former inmate-oriented rather than for sod use (which was, if I remember correctly, one of the main ideas for the heavy robobody of yours).

:|

To be perfectly honest, there's a section of my brain that feels insulted that I should make a suit for fleshies, despite that being very inefficient effectiveness wise.  If they want to keep their squishy inefficient meatsack bodies, then let them get shot!

That part of my brain aside, I was planning on making a Milnoplate-style suit standard.  As you pointed out, one layer of battlesuit plate is just as good against small arms as five.  The primary issue that you have is that even if your armor is perfect, the raw force of a large kinetic weapon can still give you a concussion or break ribs.  I believe Milno demonstrated this on the sharkmist mission, when he was shot in the head and nearly knocked out, despite wearing milnoplate AND an avatar cloak.  His armor wasn't even scratched, but he took damage.

[Parisbre56]

If they want to keep their squishy inefficient meatsack bodies, then let them get shot!

But won't getting shot result in the opposite?

More seriously, you've got to remember that we're going to have to arm ARM's allied worlds' armies and garrisons and the people there probably won't be as eager to get their heads chopped off.
"Hey honey, good news! They promoted me to private! They're taking me to Stroggification plant tomorrow to chop my head off!"

[AoshimaMichio]

"Hey honey, good news! They promoted me to private! They're taking me to Stroggification plant tomorrow to chop my head off!"

This makes very good sig. May I?

[Radio Controlled]

Battlesuits just don't use exoskeletons.  When I first started designing the HRB, I started with an exoskeleton.  PW said that all those exoskeletons need a physical body inside of them to operate, or they just collapse, so just directly building robotic arms would be the most efficient way to construct it.
I'm not saying that we couldn't strengthen the battlesuits, I'm just saying that the exoskeletons don't work like you think they do.

I know how an exoskeleton like the one in a Mk.III works, and that it has a feedback system to guide movement, and that without it it doesn't work. It's a case of semantics right now: if you designed a suit that's fully autonomous (movement computer and all, a hollow stevebot for example), and left room for a dude to step in and be ridden around without him providing input, I'd probably still call it an exoskeleton.

[Parisbre56]

"Hey honey, good news! They promoted me to private! They're taking me to Stroggification plant tomorrow to chop my head off!"

This makes very good sig. May I?

Sure. It's always nice to see your jokes sigpreciated.

EDIT: Although I just noticed I made a spelling mistake.
EDIT2: And after a quick wiki search, it turns out that Private is the lowest military rank possible, even though the above sentence implies the existence of another rank, like Recruit.

[syvarris]

But won't getting shot result in the opposite?

Did you know that I used to want to include the neck snippers from the MK.II, in all MCP suits?

I am aware of the implications.  I'm interested in winning the war, not keeping the soldiers comfortable.

And if they start mutinies, I'll write a program that controls their braincase and gets them addicted to opiates.

More seriously, you've got to remember that we're going to have to arm ARM's allied worlds' armies and garrisons and the people there probably won't be as eager to get their heads chopped off.

More seriously, you've got to remember that it's impossible to make a suit for humans that has similar defensive abilities to a HRB, can still fit through doors, and isn't prohibitively expensive.

As I said before, I'm willing to design a standardized milnoplate-level suit.  I'm not making anything better than that because I just don't see a purpose that justifies the cost;  Milnoplate's still nigh-immune to small arms fire, it just can't act like a battlesuit and ignore any weapon that isn't larger than the man holding it.

I know how an exoskeleton like the one in a Mk.III works, and that it has a feedback system to guide movement, and that without it it doesn't work. It's a case of semantics right now: if you designed a suit that's fully autonomous (movement computer and all, a hollow stevebot for example), and left room for a dude to step in and be ridden around without him providing input, I'd probably still call it an exoskeleton.

Okay, I get that, but you were saying that a battlesuit could be beefed up using an exoskeleton design from that research project you did so very long ago.  All I'm saying is that you can't do that, because PW has a different definition of exoskeleton than you.

I'm sorry that I started arguing about this- it's basically irrelevant, since you could just reinforce the battlesuit a different way.

[Parisbre56]

Have the speakers of all transport ships covertly emulate the effects of shark mist radiation or infect passengers with the sound worm. Then give each of them a complementary cyanide pill. People will go in humans and come out corpses. Problem solved, ample supply of brains received. And since they killed themselves, nobody can blame you.

[Radio Controlled]

Okay, I get that, but you were saying that a battlesuit could be beefed up using an exoskeleton design from that research project you did so very long ago.  All I'm saying is that you can't do that, because PW has a different definition of exoskeleton than you.

Did you check the link I gave? One of the things I asked for were

C) Heavy exoskeleton, like the one used in a battlesuit

So, in that library, there should be different skeletons (weird to use that and not put exo in front) that can be used as a basis for building a battlesuit-like thing upon. Thus, the original point stands it seems.

[Nikitian]

Actually, have it been discussed about going the opposite way? What if we supplemented our robosods with fleshy supersoldiers? Either sods cranked up to thirteen by the Doctor, or just the best, the brightest and finest of our human recruits, who would then be extensively trained and genetically supermodified?
We could actually create fm/amp support troops the latter way, especially if we figure out how to boost the right attributes with genetherapy.


On the Protectorate suit: Let us agree to disagree here. I still really hope it would get updated, as it does represent a very distinct tier of armour, has its merits, and would probably still remain in use even in outdated form.

[Xantalos]

Actually, have it been discussed about going the opposite way? What if we supplemented our robosods with fleshy supersoldiers? Either sods cranked up to thirteen by the Doctor, or just the best, the brightest and finest of our human recruits, who would then be extensively trained and genetically supermodified?
We could actually create fm/amp support troops the latter way, especially if we figure out how to boost the right attributes with genetherapy.

*obligatory Faustian bargain offer of Xan assistance with this issue*

[Sean Mirrsen]

Hm. Just had an evil thought while I was typing my post in the Heph thread.

The HEP beam starts to break up and diffuse after a certain distance, dependent on the compression factor, seemingly without actually losing power, just losing focus. We can fairly precisely tune the compression factor.

Assuming we can deal with the heating issues one way or another, and chain a good array of these together - we can basically fine-tune their output so that the shots start to diffuse after penetrating the armor of the target. Armor penetration, and massive internal damage.

[Parisbre56]

One idea for ship weapons: small size massive damage automanipulator rounds, like grav-shells. Launch many of them at once, perhaps with a missile that fires them when it gets close enough or some sort of fragmentation shell or even small individual missiles that form a swarm. The enemy is very likely to ignore them due to their large number and small size, which will make them think they'll be stopped by their shields. They probably won't be enough to destroy the ship but they would be excellent for hitting weak points like the engines or main cannon and rendering them sitting ducks or mostly harmless respectively.

[Nikitian]

Armor... leave standard for now.

Just curious: do you mean 'standard' as 'UWM-design standard ship armor' or 'new upgraded version, designed to replace old-UWM standard armor'? If former, do you intend to update it before the ships are built?

On hexbug armor being 'heavy':
On the spaceship scale, isn't the difference in armor weight mostly negligible? I mean, the weapons themselves (with dedicated power plants and all the stuff) are already going to weight a whole lot, no? How much volume of a ship is her armor, usually?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Armor... leave standard for now.

Just curious: do you mean 'standard' as 'UWM-design standard ship armor' or 'new upgraded version, designed to replace old-UWM standard armor'? If former, do you intend to update it before the ships are built?

On hexbug armor being 'heavy':
On the spaceship scale, isn't the difference in armor weight mostly negligible? I mean, the weapons themselves (with dedicated power plants and all the stuff) are already going to weight a whole lot, no? How much volume of a ship is her armor, usually?

That depends on how thick the armor is and how large the ship is. I don't really know either, but given the energies it's supposed to protect against, let's say the armor is several meters - let's even say 10 meters - thick. A typical combat ship in the ER-verse is not enormously big, but we know the designs are rectangular. For a battlecruiser let's say we have ship some thousand meters long., and maybe a hundred meters in height and width. A big long slab of armor and weapons, kinda like the Sword. Overall volume is thus 100x100x1000m, ten million cubic meters. Overall armor volume is, simplifying to a simple shell of armor without accounting for engines and suchlike, is two 10x100x1000m slabs, two 10x80x1000m slabs, and two 10x80x80m slabs, or 3728000 cubic meters of armor, which is kinda a lot. Reducing the armor shell to 5 meters gives two 5x100x1000m, two 5x90x1000m, and two 5x90x90m slabs, all together making up 1881000 cubic meters of armor, or 18.81% of the total volume. Given that besides the superstructure and maybe some ammunition or special materials carried aboard, armor is by far the densest material of a ship, and by far the least porous unlike the various inhabited or functional spaces that have maintenance areas and other passages, those 18.81% can represent a significant portion of that example ship's mass. Unless my math is off, which it always can be.