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Petro Poroshenko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[Owlbread]

The definitions of whiteness, Christendom and Europeanism are not set in stone - for example, quite a lot of pro-Western Ukrainians think that Russians are actually Mongoloid Finno-Ugrs with a slave mentality. By applying some appropriate media coverage, any opposition to the war with Russia on the grounds of Russia being white, Christian and European can be easily dealt with. It has already happened at least twice during the past 200 years.

And this is the problem - "200 years" is a very long time. Public opinion regarding an open war with Russia in 2014 would be very different to the 1800s and 1900s and so on. The problem here if I can see it Guardian is that you have a tendency to bang on about the past as if it relates 100% directly to the future (e.g. NATO in 2014 is actually Nazi Germany in disguise) rather than looking for parallels that we can learn from e.g. how countries/states work, how colonialism works, how people control us and so on.

I should also add - do you think people in Britain in 2014 will flock to support Ukrainians in a land invasion/bombing campaign of Russia in a situation where the West is the aggressor? People over here, if they have an opinion at all, think the Ukrainian government are Nazis. They think Putin's a gangster, sure, but they're not backing any horse in this race and considering the response to Iraq in 2003 I can only imagine what kind of protests we'd see.

Being white didn't save USSR from being demonized as the spawn of hell.

Indeed it didn't, but 2014 is not 1954, nor is modern Russia red in any way.

If NATO can stop the perceived threat of Russia for good, it will do that.

And do you think starting a war with Russia, killing thousands of people in the process, would stop the perceived threat for good better than international sanctions will?

In my opinion by trying to crush the movement of the Ukrainian people towards their national self determination by intentionally embroiling them in a bloody ethnic war between Russo-Ukrainians and Ukrainians, Russia under Putin has signed its own economic death warrant. The greatest threat to Putin's grip on power was the notion of Ukraine, economically secure and successful and in the EU with vast Russian-majority districts in the country. Then Russians could look at the Russians living in a European Ukraine and their lifestyles and either move to Ukraine (it's just like Russia but because of EU freedom of movement you get to go and live in London without being an oligarch!) or ask the very good question "why can't we have that lifestyle?"

[Darvi]

And do you think starting a war with Russia, killing thousands of people in the process, would stop the perceived threat for good better than international sanctions will?

Full disclosure, I do think killing everybody (and I do mean everybody, everywhere) would help.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russian ruble at new all time lows. Must be NATO's fault.

[Darvi]

Russian ruble at new all time lows. Must be NATO's fault.

Call me when the ruble is as much worth as rubble so I can make puns about it.

[Sergarr]

You don't get it, Owlbread. The war has already started. The economical sanctions are just the first step towards the nearly inevitable destruction of Russia that can only be avoided if we cleanse our government from the incredible filth that has filled it since the Soviet times.

Look: Putin, 4 December: We must stop currency speculators.
Gref, the head of Sberbank: The speculators are rational actors and they've in their right to act
Sergey Shvetsov, one of leaders of our CENTRAL BANK: The speculators are good for currency market.

This shit right here. Do you see it? Do you see it, m8s? This is a direct spit from our state-sponsored financial organizations into the face of the president of state Putin, and the whole Russia with him.

This is not right. This is absolutely not right at all. This shit right here cannot be allowed.

Because if these people think that they can not simply ignore, but to directly go against the words of Putin... something tells me the Putin is in serious threat of being overthrown and replaced by Hodorkovsky.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Yes, the people who run Sberbank and the central bank know more about the effects of currency speculators than the magnanimously ignorant Putin. Shocking to learn that Putin and his coterie don't know what they're talking about. I mean, he is an economic expert, right?

It would be good if they licked his boots and allowed him to annihilate the remnants of Russia's economy, though? I love the mindset that not licking putin's boots = Putin is being overthrown. Maybe, just maybe, the people who run sberbank and the central bank are terrified that their dictator assumes he can stop currency speculators by executing people, or throwing them in prison for indeterminate periods. And it might be surprising that the dictator of russia shouldn't be able to unilaterally implement blindly ignorant policy changes considering it happens all the time, but in this case if Putin got his way the ruble would be done.

[Knit tie]

Sergarr, why do you insist on being so crazy?

Don't make me call the Toad.

[Erkki]

Can this conversation serve a purpose anymore, Dave?

[Knit tie]

Can this conversation serve a purpose anymore, Dave?

I honestly don't think so.

I think I seriously should call the Toad here.

[Owlbread]

You don't get it, Owlbread. The war has already started. The economical sanctions are just the first step towards the nearly inevitable destruction of Russia that can only be avoided if we cleanse our government from the incredible filth that has filled it since the Soviet times.

I disagree with the notion that Russia will be destroyed - I am not convinced by that. I do agree wholeheartedly with you though that you need to cleanse the government of the filth. They are gangsters of the highest order and their influence dates back to at least the 1990s.

The problem is that you still haven't come round to the idea that Putin himself is one of the gangsters - indeed, the public face of a whole cabal of them. In the climate of the 1990s there's only one way he could rise to the top.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Can this conversation serve a purpose anymore, Dave?

I honestly don't think so.

[This topic was never constructive]

[Knit tie]

Can this conversation serve a purpose anymore, Dave?

I honestly don't think so.

[This topic was never constructive]

[No it wasn't]

[Helgoland]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I've learned a lot in these threads. If there's one thing we can do to make the situation worse, it's to stop talking.

[Toady One]

(no need to message knit tie, I locked the thread)