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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Helgoland]

2): I meant 'representative of' as in 'arguing for', not 'personally accountable for the actions of'.

But the last paragraph may be the most intelligent thing written during the last ten pages of discussion. Except for my own posts, obviously

[Sheb]

Yeah, so can we all agree that Russia's actions should be condemned here, just as countless similar actions by the US in the past shall likewise be condemned, and that any future actions of this time, be they from the US, Russia, China of Luxembourg shall also be condemned?

[Descan]

Consider the following: Canada loses its nukes somehow and has a nonviolent revolution where communists prominently feature. Existing government is overthrown and the new one is openly anti-western and wishes to establish close ties with Russia, China and Iran. A large, important American military base sits right across the USA-Canada border in a superbly defensible region that openly supports the USA and wishes to be a part of it. In another place right across the border, the people of two Canadian provinces say that they want nothing to do with the new "communist" government, capture governmental buildings and declare the independence of "the Republics of Vancouver and Calgary". New Canadian government reacts badly to that and sends forces to suppress the rebels.

Canada doesn't have nukes, our current government IS trying to open up more ties with China, and a lot of Canadians DON'T like them. So uh, not really... Not really.

Also, Russia has like, three NATO pro-EU countries on the border already, doesn't it? The Baltics. And those are much closer to what people actually consider "Russia" than Ukraine is, like Moscow and St. Petersburg and that whole "Central Russia" (hah) area.

[Sheb]

Actually, out of Russia's neighbors, four are in NATO (the three Baltics, plus Turkey), and four are in the EU (the three Baltics, plus Finland).

[Helgoland]

Poland has not yet been partitioned again, my friend.

[Erkki]

@Erkki: I honestly do believe that the whole conflict really is one of influence and interests between Russia and NATO, with the latter simply never needing to do anything that can be interpreted as "aggression" to further its goals. I also believe that Russia and NATO really are geopolitical enemies, just like USA and Iran are geopolitical enemies.

If it were, we'd see NATO or its leading members directly support Ukraine. The clash could be over already. You should also note that among the list of nations that have condemned Russia's actions and placed sanctions, many are not in NATO, have not even close to majority support for joining NATO, nor have governments, prime ministers or presidents supporting it either. Heck, EU does not even want Ukraine to become a member in the foreseeable future!

Claiming a NATO vs. Russia interests clash is an oversimplification and quite frankly sounds like another attempt of blurring things up RT style and making the annexation of Crimea and the whole East-Ukraine affair(from both sides, including Ukraine shelling its own people) sound more acceptable, rationalized or even normal, as if ordinary for nations.

Yeah, so can we all agree that Russia's actions should be condemned here, just as countless similar actions by the US in the past shall likewise be condemned, and that any future actions of this time, be they from the US, Russia, China of Luxembourg shall also be condemned?

Again, absolutely! But the past will be probably be get drawn out for excuses and justification, "but they also did this", again still for who knows how many times.

[Sheb]

Helgoland: True, I apologize for forgetting about your ancestral Königsberg. So yeah, make that 5.

[Baffler]

Helgoland: True, I apologize for forgetting about your ancestral Königsberg. So yeah, make that 5.

inb4 Kaliningrad.

Anyway, @poll, does this mean that the thread is over? Are we actually in agreement?

[Knit tie]

Anyway, @poll, does this mean that the thread is over? Are we actually in agreement?

No, unfortunately. I still have to посраться with Erkki some over the fact that the USA does support the Ukrainian army, although not with troops. And also over the fact that I think that breaking international law is normal for countries, because most countries are cynical assholes, as every Russian knows. And also over the fact that he thinks that the reason Russia got involved in the Ukrainian crisis is because of Putins' lust for power, while I think that the reason Russia's got involved is because of Putin's assholish realpolitiking power struggle with the USA.

[Sheb]

Except Russia is the only one struggling. The US doesn't want a fight with Russia. The US isn't struggling with Russia. Russia simply isn't important enough anymore for the US to bother.

[Helgoland]

To quote the Peanuts: "She's fighting. I'm just sitting here."

[...] while I think that the reason Russia's got involved is because of Putin's assholish realpolitiking power struggle with the USA.

What do you mean realpolitik? Realpolitik would be for Putin not to support the rebels at all - you said so yourself.

[Erkki]

Anyway, @poll, does this mean that the thread is over? Are we actually in agreement?

No, unfortunately. I still have to посраться with Erkki some over the fact that the USA does support the Ukrainian army, although not with troops. And also over the fact that I think that breaking international law is normal for countries, because most countries are cynical assholes, as every Russian knows. And also over the fact that he thinks that the reason Russia got involved in the Ukrainian crisis is because of Putins' lust for power, while I think that the reason Russia's got involved is because of Putin's assholish realpolitiking power struggle with the USA.

Firstly, that is not direct support. Secondly, uhh, maybe you should read my posts more carefully. It's half past midnight here and I'm not at my greatest constructiveness so apologies for you having to bear with me just not bothering. I dont care if countries are cynical assholes, of course they are because they can, and it was just discussed minutes ago that objectively it does not matter what bad each country has done in the past or is doing now. All of that was and still is equally condemnable, and I'm running out of patience in tolerating people who openly defend the use of violence or threat of it to advance national economical or geopolitical interests. We've been through this many times already.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

BTW, Helgoland. How many Germans want  Königsberg back?

[Knit tie]

Except Russia is the only one struggling. The US doesn't want a fight with Russia. The US isn't struggling with Russia. Russia simply isn't important enough anymore for the US to bother.

My friend, you are seriously underestimating the power of ideology.

[...] while I think that the reason Russia's got involved is because of Putin's assholish realpolitiking power struggle with the USA.

What do you mean realpolitik? Realpolitik would be for Putin not to support the rebels at all - you said so yourself.

Well he's obviously supporting them for some reason, and he has shown to be an extremely rational man previously, so I am guessing it's a realpolitik in a sense that it's a part of some political plan, not a wild powertripping landgrab. Still morally wrong, but not as stupid.

Anyway, @poll, does this mean that the thread is over? Are we actually in agreement?

No, unfortunately. I still have to посраться with Erkki some over the fact that the USA does support the Ukrainian army, although not with troops. And also over the fact that I think that breaking international law is normal for countries, because most countries are cynical assholes, as every Russian knows. And also over the fact that he thinks that the reason Russia got involved in the Ukrainian crisis is because of Putins' lust for power, while I think that the reason Russia's got involved is because of Putin's assholish realpolitiking power struggle with the USA.

Firstly, that is not direct support. Secondly, uhh, maybe you should read my posts more carefully. It's half past midnight here and I'm not at my greatest constructiveness so apologies for you having to bear with me just not bothering. I dont care if countries are cynical assholes, of course they are because they can, and it was just discussed minutes ago that objectively it does not matter what bad each country has done in the past or is doing now. All of that was and still is equally condemnable, and I'm running out of patience in tolerating people who openly defend the use of violence or threat of it to advance national economical or geopolitical interests. We've been through this many times already.

I am not defending the use of violence, I am simply saying that most countries are going to use violence whenever the hell is suits them politically and there's nothing we, or the UN for that matter, can do about it. Because most countries are self-serving assholes and have never been anything but self-serving assholes. And Putin is a self-serving asshole, but he is a clever self-serving asshole, unlikely to do stupid things like supporting the Ukrainian rebels out of lust for land and then forcing them into a positional war so that all the land he can possibly get is limited to a small devastated shred of Ukrainian territory. Russian cynicism.

[Helgoland]

BTW, Helgoland. How many Germans want  Königsberg back?

None. None that should be Germans, at least. The Germans living there have been deported to modern-day German territory, so what would we want with a town full of Russians?
Not that I'd mind Kleine Grüne Männer in Königsberg, but mostly just to show Russia we can pull that shit too.