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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

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Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Knit tie]

[Because they're not supposed to be getting soldiers and equipment from Russia like they are]

He was the guy Guardian G.I. used to convince of the Russian presence of Ukraine, actually. He freely admits that Russia helps rebels, and even interviews Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

EDIT: Why does he do that? Because he is "just" a blogger, and thus his opinion has no official weight and cannot be used to dismiss Russian "plausible deniability". Kremlin can always just say "he's lying, give us actual proof".

[Sheb]

Yeah, because we've been going in circle for ages, with the same points raised again and again. But yeah, I was too dismissive, sorry Knit Tie. I hope you know I'm not a blond ideologue (hell, I'm the one who first posted that "meet the americans" link.)

I think I'm worried. I can see where Russia is heading, and the though process behind it. And it's headed toward a clash with the West. Ukraine was one thing, but how do we know where Putin, and the Russians behind him, will stop? If today it's the Donbass, why not the russophones parts of Estonia next?

But sooner or later, the West will stand up, and there will be a war. I know I shall be on the barricades the day Putin threaten my beloved European Union. And I hope I won't have to shoot any of you.

[mainiac]

leading to blatant ad hominem:

I tried to use the approach of patiently and slowly explaining the problems to Knit Tie.  The result was that he ignored me.

I know that it feels so damn high and mighty to trash on people for being rude but the fact of the matter is that Knit Tie pisses in the water.

If someone posts a lie that takes one minute to write but ten minutes to explain the problem with it's forgiveable.  If they do it twice it's annoying.  If they do it again and again and again they are pissing in the pool.  It's not an ad hominum, it's pointing out that someone is discussing in bad faith.

[Baffler]

leading to blatant ad hominem:

I tried to use the approach of patiently and slowly explaining the problems to Knit Tie.  The result was that he ignored me.

I know that it feels so damn high and mighty to trash on people for being rude but the fact of the matter is that Knit Tie pisses in the water.

If someone posts a lie that takes one minute to write but ten minutes to explain the problem with it's forgiveable.  If they do it twice it's annoying.  If they do it again and again and again they are pissing in the pool.  It's not an ad hominum, it's pointing out that someone is discussing in bad faith.

How can you be so sure that your dubiously sourced information is any more valid than his? So much so that everything said by the other side is a lie? Western media gets a lot of its info from the Ukrainian government and God knows they have a horse in this race. There's plenty of misinformation, disinformation, and yes outright lies, going on all around.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russia should be exonerated from sending its soldiers to invade another nation because of random conspiracy theories

[mainiac]

How can you be so sure that your dubiously sourced information is any more valid than his?

Because this shit was established months ago?

Dont blame me if you dont follow basic world affairs.

[Baffler]

Russia should be exonerated from sending its soldiers to invade another nation because of random conspiracy theories

When did I say Russia shouldn't be held accountable for taking advantage of separatism in the East and prolonging the fight? It's a despicable ploy to drum up domestic support, and possibly to prove that Russia is still a world power, by undermining Ukraine's sovereignty and more importantly by causing its citizens to suffer. What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and have always had some kind of inherent moral high ground.

How can you be so sure that your dubiously sourced information is any more valid than his?

Because this shit was established months ago?

Dont blame me if you dont follow basic world affairs.

How quickly you fall back on insults. Alright. What was the last lie you debunked here? And what purpose does continually bringing it up serve except to stir up trouble?

[mainiac]

What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and have always had some kind of inherent moral high ground.

Who said it was inherent?  We are judging Russia by it's actions.

How quickly you fall back on insults. Alright. What was the last lie you debunked here?

How quickly you fall back on insults.

Look at page 35 and 36 for an example of what happens when I explain things slowly.  (Spoiler alert!  Nothing!)

[Knit tie]

Yeah, because we've been going in circle for ages, with the same points raised again and again. But yeah, I was too dismissive, sorry Knit Tie. I hope you know I'm not a blond ideologue (hell, I'm the one who first posted that "meet the americans" link.)

I think I'm worried. I can see where Russia is heading, and the though process behind it. And it's headed toward a clash with the West. Ukraine was one thing, but how do we know where Putin, and the Russians behind him, will stop? If today it's the Donbass, why not the russophones parts of Estonia next?

But sooner or later, the West will stand up, and there will be a war. I know I shall be on the barricades the day Putin threaten my beloved European Union. And I hope I won't have to shoot any of you.

I am not looking forward to meeting any of you people on the battlefield either, but I will fight nevertheless should a Russian-NATO armed conflict occur.

A new Cold War is increasingly probable, you are right, but I think that fears of Russian imperialism are more rooted in the old fear of communism than in reality. Crimea had active Russian military bases in it (similarly to how USA has military bases in other countries), the main of which was the giant Sevastopol military port, and thus it's plausible that Putin really only wanted to get this invaluable military asset back, with Crimea only coming in as an extra. There is no desire whatsoever among ordinary Russians to attack anything, and if you wait a bit, I'll post a link to a poll that shows that.

[Baffler]

What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and have always had some kind of inherent moral high ground.

Who said it was inherent?  We are judging Russia by it's actions.

How quickly you fall back on insults. Alright. What was the last lie you debunked here?

How quickly you fall back on insults.

Look at page 35 and 36 for an example of what happens when I explain things slowly.  (Spoiler alert!  Nothing!)

All I see there is a longer version of this exact same conversation except with Knit Tie instead of me. What's your point exactly? This is going nowhere just as fast though, so I'll just go about my business and give you the last word.

[mainiac]

All I see there is a longer version of this exact same conversation except with Knit Tie instead of me. What's your point exactly?

What is my point for you starting an argument with me?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and have always had some kind of inherent moral high ground.

What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and always had something to do with independent sovereign nations invading other nations despite it being a completely unrelated scenario, especially when its based on fanciful conspiracy theories. Make the moral equivalence all you like and exonerate Russia for invading a nation, it doesn't change the fact they're invading Ukraine, and have annexed their land. That is where the blame lies.

Once you can find some American APCs and body disposal trucks in Kiev I'll be willing to accept that the 'west' is as much to blame for Russia invading Ukraine as Russia is, and humor arguments of the subject. Otherwise it's passing the blame for Russia invading a nation to someone who isn't them. That's about as dishonest as it comes.

[Baffler]

What I take issue with is people pretending Western powers have and always had something to do with independent sovereign nations invading other nations despite it being a completely unrelated scenario, especially when its based on fanciful conspiracy theories. Make the moral equivalence all you like and exonerate Russia for invading a nation, it doesn't change the fact they're invading Ukraine, and have annexed their land. That is where the blame lies.

Once you can find some American APCs and body disposal trucks in Kiev I'll be willing to accept that the 'west' is as much to blame for Russia invading Ukraine as Russia is, and humor arguments of the subject. Otherwise it's passing the blame for Russia invading a nation to someone who isn't them. That's about as dishonest as it comes.

When did I say Russia shouldn't be held accountable for taking advantage of separatism in the East and prolonging the fight? It's a despicable ploy to drum up domestic support, and possibly to prove that Russia is still a world power, by undermining Ukraine's sovereignty and more importantly by causing its citizens to suffer.

[mainiac]

Baffler, how dare you say that without evidence?  Why do you hate Russians so much?

[Knit tie]

Here's a poll that says that only 16% of Russians approve of helping Novorossia with troops, just as I said.

This also puts strain on my previous theory that Putin's support would plummet if he were to let the rebels fall: if only a minority of Russians approve of Russia officially getting involved in the Ukrainian civil war, then Putin's involvement there cannot be motivated by fears of his image shattering if he lets the separatists lose. But what can his motive be, then? Perhaps he seeks confrontation with the West out of sheer Cold War oppositionism? Or is it all a plan to challenge the political hegemony of NATO? Or is it all very simple, and Putin just doesn't want a pro-western EU member country right across the border? But then, why interfere with the rebels' war?

@Mictlan: what if I were to say that what's going on in Ukraine is simply two Great Powers squabbling? And that one's not particularly better than the other, in general?