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Petro Poroshenko

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Yulia Tymoshenko

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Oleg Lyashko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[Knit tie]

Just because the CIA was behind one doesn't neccesarily mean that they're behind ALL of them.

I never said that the CIA was behind all of them.

And now with the title change, I'm wondering if you really are drunk.

No, I've just realised that the amount of productive debate in this thread is nil and will never increase, so I might as well "catch some lulz", as we say it in the Russian internet.

And your phrasing, and especially your later whataboutisms, made it abundantly clear that you were talking about a decisive role played by the CIA.

Or was that just your interpretation of my statement that the USA had its intelligence involved in many foreign political affairs and then denied this fact?

[smjjames]

What does the whole CIA messing around in South America, the Carribean (Cuba mostly), and possibly the Middle East, thing have to do with the Ukraine topic?

[Knit tie]

What does the whole CIA messing around in South America, the Carribean, and possibly the Middle East, thing have to do with the Ukraine topic?

Nothing, really. I am just having fun, since nobody here really discusses anything. Things are mostly dead until yours truly writes something stupid and inflammatory, Mictlan makes another post about how eeeeeeeeeevil Russia's economy is about to crash or UR shows his patriotic fervor, and even then the "conversation" doesn't last long.

[mainiac]

The CIA doesn't have superpowers, they're human and they mostly just befriend contacts for informatioin.  If the US was actually doing what you are saying then it would be the Green Berets, not the CIA, that would be doing things and Ukraine would be full of US equipment and everyone would be talking about US soldiers all over the place.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Russia's economy is about to crash

Well, the thing is, I've been warning about it all year. Now the GDP growth has been revised -3.3% since that point, and the ruble is down against every other currency about 60-70%.  I could say I told you so, but you get reminded of that every time you exchange your rubles so I don't feel the need to rub it in. Just saying, I did warn anyone who uses rubles in March that it'd be a good idea to probably switch to another currency until this period passes.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I can't understand...  If CIA has superpowers to create revolutions and uses it to hurt mother Russia then why not choose a direct route and create a nice revolution in Moscow?

[Baffler]

The CIA doesn't have superpowers, they're human and they mostly just befriend contacts for informatioin.  If the US was actually doing what you are saying then it would be the Green Berets, not the CIA, that would be doing things and Ukraine would be full of US equipment and everyone would be talking about US soldiers all over the place.

Do you deny then that the CIA collapsed the communist regime in Afghanistan, or Iran's Mohammad Mossadegh, or Jacobo Arbenz, or armed Contras, or the tried to overthrow the Sandinistas or the Castros, and half a dozen other things? They don't.

I can't understand...  If CIA has superpowers to create revolutions and uses it to hurt mother Russia then why not choose a direct route and create a nice revolution in Moscow?

If certain voices are to be believed, they didn't need too because Yeltsin had American advisors make every decision for him.

[mainiac]

Do you deny then that the CIA collapsed the communist regime in Afghanistan, or Iran's Mohammad Mossadegh, or Jacobo Arbenz, or armed Contras, or the tried to overthrow the Sandinistas or the Castros, and half a dozen other things? They don't.

Those operations were conducted by perfectly human and downright boring means.  They dont just wave a magical wand and conjure a revolution out of nowhere.

The actual process of creating an army in a foreign country from scratch is done by the Green Berets and it would take a long time if you wanted a big force.  It's also done through conventional military channels and the constitution requires congressional approval for long term military deployments which means you can't hide a massive operation of that type.  So the US doesn't just conjure up militaries of foreigners, that would be wildly impractical.  Small foreign units are sometimes are useful (that's why the Green Berets exist) but what's much, much more common is that the existing military leadership can be won over.

[GreatJustice]

Do you deny then that the CIA collapsed the communist regime in Afghanistan, or Iran's Mohammad Mossadegh, or Jacobo Arbenz, or armed Contras, or the tried to overthrow the Sandinistas or the Castros, and half a dozen other things? They don't.

Those operations were conducted by perfectly human and downright boring means.  They dont just wave a magical wand and conjure a revolution out of nowhere.

The actual process of creating an army in a foreign country from scratch is done by the Green Berets and it would take a long time if you wanted a big force.  It's also done through conventional military channels and the constitution requires congressional approval for long term military deployments which means you can't hide a massive operation of that type.  So the US doesn't just conjure up militaries of foreigners, that would be wildly impractical.  Small foreign units are sometimes are useful (that's why the Green Berets exist) but what's much, much more common is that the existing military leadership can be won over.

Unless I misread something, he isn't saying anything like "The CIA created the Ukrainian Army and is running all operations in the country", he's saying the CIA has had a hand things such as the Orange Revolution and the Maidan, which hardly requires anything that isn't relatively "boring". It seems to be incredibly naive to think that the CIA had no involvement at all in either event and simply sat back and watched as allies of the EU (and, by extension, the US) took over a strategically important country completely on their own.

Further, while there are plenty of Russians fighting for the separatists, it seems just as silly to act as though the DPR/LPR are literally just fronts for the Russian Army, like the people living in those regions were loyal flag waving Ukrainians happy with the current state of the country and were unfortunately taken hostage by foreign invaders. It also seems silly to suggest that Putin himself orchestrated the rebellion, as if he would create a warzone on his own border so he could constantly have to navigate between Russian public opinion and Western international outrage, all for the possibility of gaining a fairly small amount of land that would likely be a devastated mess.

[Sheb]

Oh, Putin totally created the rebellion, whether he intended to is another matter. He certainly did what he could to keep it going. And it's not merely about grabbing some land, but about keeping him popular in Russia and destabilizing Ukraine.

[Knit tie]

Oh, Putin totally created the rebellion, whether he intended to is another matter. He certainly did what he could to keep it going. And it's not merely about grabbing some land, but about keeping him popular in Russia and destabilizing Ukraine.

Is he that stupidly power hungry that he wants more support at any cost? The prolonged Ukrainian crisis has only hurt Russian interests so far, and if Putin really wanted to destablilise Ukraine, he wouldn't have pushed for the Minsk agreement and just let the rebel forces take the fight to territories outside of Donbass.

Those operations were conducted by perfectly human and downright boring means.  They dont just wave a magical wand and conjure a revolution out of nowhere.

Who says that the CIA created its own military units and occupy the Maidan with them and not just supported the existing enemies of the regime with money, advice and propaganda? It was involved in those coups Baffler mentioned, and admitted such. Therefore, it's very likely that it also was involved in the Orange revolution and the Maidan, as it had both the inclination and the experience. It's kinda unfair to say that since the USA didn't have its armed marines storm the Yanukovich's administration building and just supported the protesters instead, it didn't have a hand in the installation of pro-western Poroshenko's government.

[mainiac]

The impression I was getting was that you were putting the US involvement at the same level as the Russian involvement.  Are you saying that in fact the US involvement was far, far lesser then the Russian involvement?

If the US is making use of a local movement without providing any training or equipment or fighters then that means that there is already a local movement.  Whatever role the US would play would be very small.  On the other hand we know that Russia did provide training equipment and fighters in eastern Ukraine.

[Helgoland]

To paraphrase Marx, at some point quantity gains a quality all of its own.

[mainiac]

That's Stalin, no?

[Helgoland]

Damn. I was still paraphrasing Marx though - but what I wrote definitely is a variation of the Stalin quote, "Quantity has a quality all its own." The latter was presumably inspired by the former.