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Author Topic: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России  (Read 265072 times)

Erkki

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2295 on: January 18, 2015, 06:54:53 am »

Sheb: The Moscow Times is part of Sanoma group (which is Finnish) and is a lately force-registered "foreign agent" in Russia.

That said, Sanoma's magazines and newspapers are pretty leftist and tend to avoid saying anything bad about Russia and keep avoiding sensitive subjects in general (I suppose bashing right wing populist idiots is easier and safer).
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Sheb

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2296 on: January 18, 2015, 06:55:55 am »

Well, I grabbed that one, but I saw articles on several news sources talking about it. So I guess something happened, I just want to know how much of a big deal it s.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2297 on: January 18, 2015, 07:25:34 am »

Alright Sheb, time for me to come back from that "obvious propaganda"  :P

First of all, I couldn't find any current or at least recent maps of the frontline on the Ukrainian side, so here's a Novorossiyan one:

Spoiler: Big map (click to show/hide)

So as we can see, assuming, of course, that the map is oriented top-north and left-west, is that the rebels' positions are generally to the east of the poor Volnovakha ("Волноваха," circled red by yours truly), and the AFU are generally to the everywhere else. And the fire was from the north-north-east.
If we assume that the "Grad" shells fired were of the most common M-21OF type, they couldn't have come from Donetsk, because the maximum range of these things is 20.4 km, so it was either the AFU that occupies the obtuse bulge to the south of Donetsk that fired these missiles (yes, that's a provocation theory, no, I'm not going to discard it on the basis of just that, although I am not going to think it's likely, either) or that the rebles in Еленовка or Докучаевск fired those shells at the AFU positions (blue dash-line represents AFU troop concentrations and the spiked line represents fortifications and entrenched forces, we can see that there are Ukrainian enthrenched forces to the north-north-east of Volnovakha) that were close to the Volnovakha and missed.
In any way, considering that the entire war has so far been an MRLS-fest of horrible proportions, and that those things are, by definition, inaccurate, I'd say it's most likely that nobody deliberately shot at Volnovakha, and that whoever did it simply missed. And all this noise around that one bus becomes rather questionalbe, if you ask me, considering that the AFU deliberately shells the rebels' civilians and infrastructure, but apparently that's how propaganda works.

Sheb: The Moscow Times is part of Sanoma group (which is Finnish) and is a lately force-registered "foreign agent" in Russia.

That said, Sanoma's magazines and newspapers are pretty leftist and tend to avoid saying anything bad about Russia and keep avoiding sensitive subjects in general (I suppose bashing right wing populist idiots is easier and safer).
Unfortunately, Russia has a problem with the lower echelons of our executive government powertripping and starting to, essentially, bully businesses and publicatons with moronic interpretations of laws, such as forcing everyone and their mother to register as a foreign agent if they recieve at least one cent of funding from abroad.

As for the films, nothing will happen. Our Cultiure Ministry funded anti-Russian чернуха such as "Burned by the Sun 2" in the past, it funds anti-Russian чернуха such as "Leviathan" in the present, and it will continue to fund anti-Russian чернуха in the future. What's going on is probably Putin saying to the Culture Ministry "Why the hell are you giving money to shoot films that pour mud on Russia? We are in the middle of a propaganda war, for Christ's sake!", and the Culture Ministry going entirely overboard in its response. But there will be no actual consequences of this, just as there are no actual consequences of that "No Gay Drivers law," which was widely misreported in the Western media, anyway.

EDIT: fixed wrong wording.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:02:44 am by Knit tie »
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Helgoland

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2298 on: January 18, 2015, 07:44:33 am »

considering that the AFU deliberately shells the rebels' civilians
Sauce? Because that's kind of a bold claim.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2299 on: January 18, 2015, 08:05:25 am »

The results of searching "Donbass destruction" in Russian on Google, just for the pictures. Combined with the frequent posts of Donbass civilians all over the social media that their towns and villages are being shelled despite there being no rebel military presence in them and with the reports of the usually anti-Russian Western organisations like this and this, I think there are too many pieces of evidence to the otherwise for the widespread devastation the Ukrainian artillery has brought to Donbass to be completely accidental. And there's also the infamous Poroshenko's speech, although on its own it, of course, doesn't mean anything.

EDIT: Granted, there is no decisive evidence that the AFU are terror-shelling civilians, but there is no decisive evidence of the Voentorg being active, either, so I'd say we both are operating on lower standards here than usual.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:08:39 am by Knit tie »
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miljan

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2300 on: January 18, 2015, 08:10:14 am »

Ukraine news
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ttjXFZ2QqA#t=59

Gorlovka, 19.01.205
Center of the city after Ukranian forces attacks (warning not for kids as there are dead people)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTvYiuhl3JE#t=164

Donetsk. MLRS volley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0FwAjK3ZvI

Things are going to hell now.

"The Polish Air Force has completed the evacuation of Ukrainians with Polish descent living in eastern Ukraine and extracted them to refugee camps in Poland on Jan. 13.

The operation was conducted by C-130E Hercules and C295M cargo planes which flew to Kharkiv to board 178 persons belonging to a large ethnic minority in Ukraine which is set apart from the main body of population.

People who were qualified to be extracted were in possession of Karta Polaka, literally meaning “Pole’s card”, a.k.a Polish Charter a document which confirms the Polish citizenship of people who cannot obtain dual citizenship in the countries where they are residing (Ukraine in this case) while being Polish. These people also had no Polish citizenship or permission to stay in Poland earlier on.

The first wave of flights evacuated about 120 people living in the areas controlled by the pro-Russia separatists, while the remaining 60 were transported during the night, between Jan. 12 and 13."
http://theaviationist.com/2015/01/17/polish-air-bridge-ukraine/

This probably means a full blown offensive is going on.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:18:23 am by miljan »
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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2301 on: January 18, 2015, 08:16:11 am »

UK news
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ttjXFZ2QqA#t=59
UK is not a good abbreviation for Ukrainian - before clicking the link, I originally thought it was a British news report, because UK generally means United Kingdom. :P
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2302 on: January 18, 2015, 08:27:44 am »

Colonel Cassad Novorossiyskiy reports that the Ukrainian forces are about to attempt a new attack on the Donetsk airport.

There are still no photos or videos of them being in Donetsk.
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2304 on: January 18, 2015, 08:37:57 am »

Colonel Cassad Novorossiyskiy reports that the Ukrainian forces are about to attempt a new attack on the Donetsk airport.

There are still no photos or videos of them being in Donetsk.
Ukrainian sources use videos like this one to prove that Ukrainians troops are in Donetsk.
Are there any giveaways of it being Donetsk, and not just some random town? At least the rebels got their videos shot from the inside of the Donetsk airport.
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2305 on: January 18, 2015, 08:44:30 am »

Colonel Cassad Novorossiyskiy reports that the Ukrainian forces are about to attempt a new attack on the Donetsk airport.

There are still no photos or videos of them being in Donetsk.
Ukrainian sources use videos like this one to prove that Ukrainians troops are in Donetsk.
Are there any giveaways of it being Donetsk, and not just some random town? At least the rebels got their videos shot from the inside of the Donetsk airport.
Absolutely none whatsoever.
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Sheb

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2306 on: January 18, 2015, 10:09:00 am »

I must say Knit Tie, your double standard for proof of shelling civilians is almost comical.

Rebels allegedly shell civilians: Well, it must have been an Ukrainian mine exploding. Video of rockets falling on checkpoint? Well, that was unrelated, probably still a mine. OSCE report showing it was rocket coming from a direction of Donetsk? Doesn't prove anything, it could be Ukrainian force firing backward into their own checkpoint. Anyway, even if it was rebel rockets, it's more likely a mistake, they don't really have precision weapons anyway.

Ukrainian allegedly shell civilians: Look, that's a picture of a destroyed building in a town! This show without a doubt that Ukrainian are deliberately shelling civilians! It's Chechnya 2.0!
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2307 on: January 18, 2015, 10:36:46 am »

The rocket couldn't have come from Donetsk, anyway. It's range is 20.4 km max, the OSCE report states the distance betveen Volnovakha and Donetsk to be 35 km, but that's just me nitpicking your post, sorry.

My main argument is that so far, there is one documented case where the rebel artillery may have indirectly caused civilian casualties, as opposed to many documented cases where the AFU artillery has directly caused civilian casualties. I think that's quite a big difference.

I actually try to not use double standards as much as possible, since I think that is inherently wrong. I mean, I am not blaming the AFU for using cluster munitions, which is forbidden, as far as I know, since the rebels are also using them.

As for why am I apoligising for rebels, that's because I am supporting them. You are supporting Ukraine and you are apologising for it. Standard debate practice.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:38:18 am by Knit tie »
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2308 on: January 18, 2015, 10:38:33 am »

The whole idea of GRAD hitting checkpoint occidentally is ridiculous because  GRAD is not that inaccurate and it needs some other target nearby to miss.

Did DNR forces had intention to kill civilians? Of cause they didn't. They just attacked military target  trying to kill Ukrainian soldiers. And they never cared that this checkpoint is a part of humanitarian corridor and civilian vehicles here are common.

Assuming that any side hits civilian targets just for luls is idiotic. Misfires exist. As well as acceptable collateral damage. Question is who cares about lives of civilians more?
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Knit tie

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Re: Russia Watch Thread/Ветка о России
« Reply #2309 on: January 18, 2015, 10:39:04 am »

The whole idea of GRAD hitting checkpoint occidentally is ridiculous because  GRAD is not that inaccurate and it needs some other target nearby to miss.

Did DNR forces had intention to kill civilians? Of cause they didn't. They just attacked military target  trying to kill Ukrainian soldiers. And they never cared that this checkpoint is a part of humanitarian corridor and civilian vehicles here are common.

Assuming that any side hits civilian targets just for luls is idiotic. Misfires exist. As well as acceptable collateral damage. Question is who cares about lives of civilians more?
Well, you know my answer...

EDIT: I also have to add that despite Grads playing a prominent part in both AFU and AFN's arsenals, the sides' artillery in not even remotely limited to them and also includes a large number of rather accurate cannon artillery, such as Pion, so I don't think it's possible to say that every shell that was fired by the AFU was an inaccurate MRLS missile.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 10:43:32 am by Knit tie »
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