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[Helgoland]

Someone's shelling the Donetsk Airport with rocket artillery

Any word on who's doing it? Surely the direction the rockets are coming from can be determined...

[Knit tie]

If this was true, there wouldn't be casulties suffered by russians in combat.  There have been deaths, and there have been prisoners.

The absolute majority of claims of Russian casualties and prisoners after the Mariupol covert operation, where the Russians really did fight, that were made by Kyiv are just pure, unsubstantiated war propaganda baloney, just like both sides' claims of having taken the Donetsk airport have been so far.

...so.. all that Russian soldiers.. would need to do.. to become Russian supporting Ukranian rebels.. is to go to the combat area, and claim that they are not, in fact, russian soldiers?  Forgive me for not accepting that definition, it's ridiculous.  You could theoretically apply that to hundreds of thousands of men.  You could use similar reasoning to defend an invasion of Hong Kong.

I am sorry, I didn't get what you were originally trying to ask, so I told you about how I distinguish between Russians and Ukrainians in general. Russian soldiers are servicemen in the Russian army, that's how I distinguish them.

Usually that is referred to as a pair of revolutions in the west... if you're going to call the entire process a coup, it becomes a meaningless definition as it was an enormously politically messy civil war.  I would also question why Poroshenko wasn't in charge after the first time Yanukovitch was removed from power, if he was in fact behind this all.

The first time Yanukovich was ousted, it was Yushenko, the second time it happened, it was Proshenko, sorry for not making this clear. Also, coups are often not individual events, you can have a coup (Emperor replaced by the provisional government, in Russia's case) followed by a revolution and a civil war just fine.

I'm saying that even a weak leader would make a good figurehead, if the fighters were actually his supporters.  If it was a coup by the people in Kiev, when he had many personal supporters in the rebel controlled parts of the country, his simple existance would be a strong, and cheap, tool to encourage resistance against the central government.  Oddly, this is not the case..

The rebels did not particularly like Yanukovich, rather, they were defined by their dislike of Ukrainian nationalists, and supported Yanukovich when he was still in power only because of his opposition of said nationalists. When Yanukovich ran, the rebels quickly forgot about him.

If you believed that Russia was also lying through it's teeth, I would wonder why your statements fall so well in line with statements by those liars.  Technically, that would remain a possibility, though.  I do know quite a bit of stuff said by people over here is undeniably true, on the other hand.  They didn't lie about sending air squadrons to Poland.  There could certainly be stuff going on, but the claims as to what the Russians have been doing are very conservative.. they aren't claiming 40,000 man invasions or tank battalions.  Mostly special forces, a few thousand regulars, and sufficient armor and supplies to support the action.

I never said that I actually believe most of what Russia officially says about Donbass, e.g., Putin says that he supports the rebels to protect the Donbass Russians against Ukrainian oppression, while in reality he just uses them as a political tool. And what you said about Russian support sounds rather reasonable, I'd agree with that.

That's a neat term, 'counter-seperatism measure'.  One of those politic terms for thirty year campaigns of breaking down doors and shooting people.  I will also say that in the west, power posturing isn't done by flying transponder-off aircraft in foreign airspace.  And yes, we do have our own disputes.. we aren't all one nation, or in agreement over everything.  Some of us aren't even American.

I'm also wondering how much of that money is spin-offs for his political supporters to wet their beaks in.  There was quite a lot of speculation over the Soichi Olympics, for one.

Fool! Everybody knows that all the Europeans are just American special service agents in disguise!

Anyway, aircraft everywhere seems to be a standard practice in times of power struggle for both Russia and NATO. As for the "counter-separatism measures", what I really meant in this case was just "keeping people happy." No, seriously, that's all there is to it. Some of that money does go to guys like Kadyrov, but the people get enough of it to turn Chechnya into the stable, prosperous region it is today. And the corruption in Sochi Olympics was grossly exagerrated by the Western media, anyway.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Spoiler: some screenshot in Russian (click to show/hide)

 

Nowadays some Russians think that guy who massacred Armenian family  is a national hero who fights Armenian nazies supported by USA. Fun, isn't it, Knit Tie?

[Knit tie]

So, who the hell is that post talking about, exactly?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Oh, haven't heard about it?

http://media.am/en/Gyumri-family-massacre-Russian-TV-coverage

[LordSlowpoke]

some Russians think that guy who massacred Armenian family  is a national hero who fights Armenian nazies

do you not see the hypocrisy in pointing this out? do we really need to have this discussion again?

[mainiac]

The absolute majority of claims of Russian casualties and prisoners after the Mariupol covert operation, where the Russians really did fight, that were made by Kyiv are just pure, unsubstantiated war propaganda baloney, just like both sides' claims of having taken the Donetsk airport have been so far.

So the thing that you previously said was utterly ridiculous and no possible way it could possibly happen is now what you are saying happened.  But you adamantly deny that it's there is one more iota then that.  No, that would be utterly ridiculous, no possible way it could happen.

After all, the people who told you there were no Russian troops in Ukraine initially said so.  And it's not like they would continue to lie to you, having lied every step along the way up until now.

[Knit tie]

I agreed that there were Russian soldiers in Ukraine after Guardian showed me some evidence of this fact. But there is no evidence that these soldiers are fighting and not just merely supporting the rebels with advice and training, so I will not agree that the ones doing the fighting in Donbass are the regular Russian soldiers and not the local Donbassian volunteers and battle tourists until you show me some evidence of the Russian army actually, well, fighting after the Mariupol operation.

@UR: Our media, evidently, does report this incident. The article you posted to supposedly condemn evil Russia for not reporting this doesn't sound very coherent, and the picture in it shows the results of searching a rather long and particular phrase on just one website, as opposed to the results of just searching "Армения убийство" ("Armenia murder"), for example, on Rambler or Yandex, but anyway, regarding your original post, how is there being a crazy ultraright fringe group of Russians who think that some random murderer is a hero supposed to be a shocking revelation? Every country has people like this.

some Russians think that guy who massacred Armenian family  is a national hero who fights Armenian nazies

do you not see the hypocrisy in pointing this out? do we really need to have this discussion again?

I think I'm missing something here. Was this discussion in PMs, if I may ask?

[Helgoland]

If this was true, there wouldn't be casulties suffered by russians in combat.  There have been deaths, and there have been prisoners.

The absolute majority of claims of Russian casualties and prisoners after the Mariupol covert operation, where the Russians really did fight, that were made by Kyiv are just pure, unsubstantiated war propaganda baloney, just like both sides' claims of having taken the Donetsk airport have been so far.

Three points:
1) Why do you exclude the Mariupol 'covert operation' when talking about Russia invading Ukraine? If Germany send troops, tanks, artillery to Königsberg, but didn't start shelling St. Petersburg, I'd still consider it an invasion of Russian territory, and I'm sure you would too. How is Mariupol different? It seems like a prime example of doublethink.*
2) Why should Putin have any scruples about using regular Russian troops in the rest of Eastern Ukraine if he evidently didn't about using them near Mariopul?
3) Now that you've admitted yourself that Russian soldiers have fought and died in Ukraine, do you still categorically reject the Union of Comittees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia (oh my that's an unwieldy name) as a possible source?

*If you speak German or can find an English or Russian translation, try getting your hands on Utopie und Mythos der Weltrevolution. It's a collection of articles from two of the most important media outlets of the Third International, and it shows quite nicely a) its evolution as political circumstances changed and b) how its authors had to quickly shift their propaganda from one position to the opposite as alliances were forged, switched, and were broken.

[mainiac]

George Orwell cracked a few jokes on the subject in one of his essays if I recall correctly.  So the topic is literally Orwellian.

[Knit tie]

If this was true, there wouldn't be casulties suffered by russians in combat.  There have been deaths, and there have been prisoners.

The absolute majority of claims of Russian casualties and prisoners after the Mariupol covert operation, where the Russians really did fight, that were made by Kyiv are just pure, unsubstantiated war propaganda baloney, just like both sides' claims of having taken the Donetsk airport have been so far.

Three points:
1) Why do you exclude the Mariupol 'covert operation' when talking about Russia invading Ukraine? If Germany send troops, tanks, artillery to Königsberg, but didn't start shelling St. Petersburg, I'd still consider it an invasion of Russian territory, and I'm sure you would too. How is Mariupol different? It seems like a prime example of doublethink.*
2) Why should Putin have any scruples about using regular Russian troops in the rest of Eastern Ukraine if he evidently didn't about using them near Mariopul?
3) Now that you've admitted yourself that Russian soldiers have fought and died in Ukraine, do you still categorically reject the Union of Comittees of Soldiers' Mothers of Russia (oh my that's an unwieldy name) as a possible source?

In reverse order, because in Soviet Russia :
3) Yes. It's still hysterical and not objective in the slightest.
2) Becuase the reason Russian army fought a few skirishes near Mariupol was because the DNR and the LNR were in a very bad position back then, about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army, disorganised, undergunned and internally squabling. Now the situation is different and Putin can just let the rebels fight for themselves with Russian supplies, as that is much better for combined warfare.
1) If Germany sent troops to support the Chechen rebels back in the 1994, for example, I would call it an intervention not an invasion, just like I call it an intervention when other European and Asian countries sent their troops to assist the Whites during the Russian civil war. It's all about whether or not the primary purpose of foreign troops on some country's soil is assisting an already existing local group or movement.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

2) Becuase the reason Russian army fought a few skirishes near Mariupol was because the DNR and the LNR were in a very bad position back then, about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army, disorganised, undergunned and internally squabling. Now the situation is different and Putin can just let the rebels fight for themselves with Russian supplies, as that is much better for combined warfare.

Our imported rebels were going to get wiped out so we sent in more actual soldiers, now we pretend they're not Russian soldiers because that's better for combined warfare.

[Knit tie]

2) Becuase the reason Russian army fought a few skirishes near Mariupol was because the DNR and the LNR were in a very bad position back then, about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army, disorganised, undergunned and internally squabling. Now the situation is different and Putin can just let the rebels fight for themselves with Russian supplies, as that is much better for combined warfare.

Our imported rebels were going to get wiped out so we sent in more actual soldiers, now we pretend they're not Russian soldiers because that's better for combined warfare.

No, no, no, the rebels were homegrown, and the Russians we send are not exactly soldiers, but rather advisors and instructors. So you see, there's a big difference.

[Sergarr]

2) Why should Putin have any scruples about using regular Russian troops in the rest of Eastern Ukraine if he evidently didn't about using them near Mariopul?

That's a really good question. Evidently Putin decided to try to push forward a ceasefire (?) to make West lift their sanctions (??) and move Donbass back into Ukraine with pro-Russian elites there ().

I'm not sure who suggested that plan to Putin, but whoever did that can go and receive a medal from Ukrainian government for protecting the homeland, since that plan is literally the worst.

[miljan]

2) Becuase the reason Russian army fought a few skirishes near Mariupol was because the DNR and the LNR were in a very bad position back then, about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army, disorganised, undergunned and internally squabling. Now the situation is different and Putin can just let the rebels fight for themselves with Russian supplies, as that is much better for combined warfare.

Our imported rebels were going to get wiped out so we sent in more actual soldiers, now we pretend they're not Russian soldiers because that's better for combined warfare.

If by imported rebels you mean people that live there and work (mine workers, ex ukraine soldiers and similar), I agree. Most of fighting in donbas/donetsk area (the part I am following) is done by locals. In fact people dont hide from where they are, if they are not from ukraine but from other countries like belarus, russia, german, franc, spain, serbia and similar

Here are some of them in this interactive book:
http://joom.ag/hf0b