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[Owlbread]

There are two things at play here -

1. Russia considers certain things like gender dysphoria and homosexuality and sexual fetishes and even stuff like transvestism to be forms of mental illness.

2. Russia has prevented mentally ill people from driving.

You can see that while the law does not explicitly target gay and transgendered people and fetishists, rather it's needlessly draconian unto many groups of people, the fact that gay and transgendered people are lumped together with sufferers of schizophrenia and manic depression in the first place is an example of Russia's horrendous record on LGBT rights and, in the case of fetishists how backwards Russia is with regard to sexual freedom. The law itself is an example of Russia's horrendous record on human rights altogether.

[Knit tie]

But you yourself have repeatedly stated that the Russian public is, by and large, homophobic and transphobic. Is it that hard to imagine the local DMV employee deciding to enforce this law to take a crap on trans people?

First, how will the local DMV employee know that somebody is trans, and second, cases of active LGBT persecution are as isolated and extremely rare in Russia as they are in other BRIC countries. The general public does not venture beyond passive disapproval and prejudice.

Owl bread, please read the links and the discussion we've had so far. The law is a product of simple incompetence and a copypasted WHO list.

[smeeprocket]

But you yourself have repeatedly stated that the Russian public is, by and large, homophobic and transphobic. Is it that hard to imagine the local DMV employee deciding to enforce this law to take a crap on trans people?

First, how will the local DMV employee know that somebody is trans, and second, cases of active LGBT persecution are as isolated and extremely rare in Russia as they are in other BRIC countries. The general public does not venture beyond passive disapproval and prejudice.

that's not true at all. I just linked a trailer for a documentary showing how bad things are. Many people in the public appear to perceive homosexuals as pedophiles. And I sincerely doubt, with the laws that have been passed, that persecution by officials is rare.

These vigilante groups that lure in homosexuals and then assault them get no arrests or punishments, for example. They are very public with their actions.

But let's ignore the obvious LGBT+ issues.

Let's say I live in an area of Russia with poor public transit. I am schizophrenic. I get treatment. Suddenly I can't drive to get said treatment, I can't go to work, etc etc. How am I supposed to survive?

[Owlbread]

The most popular epithet for gay people in Russia is "pederast".

EDIT:

Knit Tie, if it's fixed by the end of the Spring I'll believe you.

[Knit tie]

Smeeps, do you seriously think that the anti-Russian propaganda does not routinely exaggerate the LGBT problems in Russia and that this film is not an example of such propaganda?

That's like saying that the modern USA culture is racist - overwhelmingly often false, but exaggerated beyond all possible reason by defaming propaganda.

The most popular epithet for gay people in Russia is "pederast".

EDIT:

Knit Tie, if it's fixed by the end of the Spring I'll believe you.

What, the law? Are there any examples of similarly dumb laws being rescinded anywhere in the world at all?

[smeeprocket]

no our culture is racist. That is a truth.

I'm not talking about the propaganda of the media, I am talking about human right's organizations and Russia's own laws.

Sorry, but unless you are gay you can't know the scope of the problem because it is illegal for gay people to raise awareness about it or vocalize their struggles.

Out of sight, out of mind, I suppose. It makes it easy to ignore the issue.

[Owlbread]

Even easier when rather than dealing with an issue you can just commit the tu quoque fallacy and decry any evidence as anti-Russian propaganda. You don't even need to explain how it's propaganda either, apparently - the fact that it's from America is enough.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

http://www.globalequality.org/newsroom/latest-news/1-in-the-news/186-the-facts-on-lgbt-rights-in-russia

http://rt.com/news/russia-gay-law-myths-951/

http://globalnews.ca/news/1128646/rights-group-releases-video-of-russia-anti-gay-attacks-ahead-of-sochi/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/now-russia-makes-transgender-driving-a-criminal-offence-9969169.html

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/15/world/europe/russia-hrw-gay-report/

It must be propaganda!

[Owlbread]

What, the law? Are there any examples of similarly dumb laws being rescinded anywhere in the world at all?

Well most developed Western states haven't criminalised homosexuality lately or implemented laws as stupid and draconian as that for quite a long time so it's hard to find an example. But giving that bullshit as a defense is pretty desperate, Knit Tie, I must say.

[smeeprocket]

It's one thing to be proud of your country, tbh, for all its faults I like being an American and living in America. (don't ever make me say that again.) But it's impossible for a country to be perfect, and recognizing faults to try and push back against them is imperative.

[Sheb]

Well, the rescinding of the ban on sodomy in the US in 2003?

[Knit tie]

I think you might not be entirely rational when it comes to the whole social equality topic, Smeeps.

Even easier when rather than dealing with an issue you can just commit the tu quoque fallacy and decry any evidence as anti-Russian propaganda.

I would like to ask you first if you have any scientific evidence of active LGBT persecution being widespread in Russia.

Mictlan, why did you link Russia Today, of all things?

What, the law? Are there any examples of similarly dumb laws being rescinded anywhere in the world at all?

Well most developed Western states haven't criminalised homosexuality lately or implemented laws as stupid and draconian as that for quite a long time so it's hard to find an example. But giving that bullshit as a defense is pretty desparate, Knit Tie, I must say.

I am just wondering what we should genuinely expect Russian government to do when it realizes that it shot itself in the PR leg with this law: try to pass it off as intentional or nullify it as publicly and loudly as possible?

It's one thing to be proud of your country, tbh, for all its faults I like being an American and living in America. (don't ever make me say that again.) But it's impossible for a country to be perfect, and recognizing faults to try and push back against them is imperative.

I am not saying that Russia is a good country for LGBT people, I am merely saying that its faults in this area are exaggerated.

[Sergarr]

I feel my voice have been ignored, so I'll repeat once again~!

oh god no

knit tie plz staph

i don't want to see yet another thread locked

ON_TOPIC:
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150110/1041996381.html

400 km range and 7.5 Mach speed for an anti-air missile? yes please.

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: Citing RT actually make sense, because even you can't accuse them of anti-Russian bias...

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Mictlan, why did you link Russia Today, of all things?

Is this a better source?

A law was passed earlier this summer that levies a fine of up to 50,000 rubles (about $1,500 dollars) on any individuals, and  up to 1 million rubles (about $30,000) on any organizations engaged in “propaganda of non-traditional relationships to minors”. Non-traditional sexual relationships were informally defined by the lawmakers as those that cannot lead to the production of offspring. What constitutes propaganda is also unclear.

At the time, the head of Russia’s Human Rights Council Mikhail Fedotov criticized the ill-defined and overly-broad terms in the law, and also said that it created a dangerous precedent by “treating people differently based on their personal characteristics, not any criminal behavior.”

Does the legislation affect foreigners and Russians differently?

Yes.  As well as paying the stated fines, any foreigners are automatically deported after committing this offense and may be arrested, but not necessarily, for up to 15 days.

Has anyone been arrested as a result of this legislation?

Several Russian activists had been fined as a result of previous, regional incarnations of this legislation, and dozens have been detained since the federal law came into power, including during protests against the new legislation. In July, a Dutch documentary crew became the first foreigners to be charged with violating the new propaganda law, after Murmansk police found tapes of them asking teenagers about their attitudes to homosexuality. The charges were later dropped.


Will the new law be suspended for the Sochi 2014 Winter Olympics?

The Russian law against “gay propaganda” is not going to apply to the participants and guests of the Sochi 2014 Winter Olympics, according to Igor Ananskikh, the head of the Russian Duma Committee on physical training, sports and youth. The International Olympic Committee said that it “received assurances from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games” in a statement made to several media outlets.

Meanwhile Russian sports minister Vitaly Mutko said: "No one is forbidding an athlete with non-traditional sexual orientation from coming to Sochi, but if he goes onto the street and starts propagandizing it, then of course he will be held accountable."

What about Gay Pride marches?

After several one-offs refusals to let them go ahead, and unsanctioned protest rallies, Moscow’s local parliament banned gay demonstrations for a 100 years in 2011, and again in 2012. They have been allowed to take place in St. Petersburg under the guise of human rights demonstrations. These have inevitably ended in bloodshed, as LGBT campaigners have been outnumbered by religious and radical right-wing counter-protesters, with police having to separate the groups. Whether Gay Pride marches should be held at all in such a febrile atmosphere has been a hotly-debated topic among Russia’s gay community.

What are Russians’ attitudes towards homosexuality?

According to a May survey conducted by Levada Center, only 21 percent of Russians believe that homosexuality is a sexual orientation people are born with.  Forty five percent believe that it is a result of “being subjected to perversion or loose personal morals”, with 20 more believing that it is both a result of circumstances and nature. More than half of Russians believe that homosexuality should be either punished by law (13 percent) or treated medically (38 percent). According to a survey conducted shortly after the gay propaganda law was passed by Levada, 76 percent of Russians support it.

What does the Russian Orthodox Church think?

The Church is vehemently opposed to homosexuality. Besides standard dismissals of gay behavior as “immoral” and “abnormal”, the Russian Patriarch Kirill recently said that recognizing same-sex couples is “a sign of the Apocalypse”.

How frequent are attacks on homosexuals?

Arguably the most notorious homophobia-linked case was the brutal murder of Vladislav Tornovsky in Volgograd. The brutal nature of the murder, in which two suspects smashed the 23-year-old’s head with a rock, stuffed beer bottles into his anus, mutilated his body and tried to dispose of the corpse by burning it, shocked many people.

The case gained worldwide coverage after one of the suspects told investigators that the killing was done after the victim came out as gay, and media reported it as a homophobic attack.

However, the victim’s close friends maintain that Tornovsky was straight, while the LGBT community in Volgograd didn’t recognize him as one of their own. Investigators said they were unlikely to pursue the motive of homophobia in this particular case. Still the case was widely publicized as an example of growing homophobia in Russia.

Homophobic crimes are being committed and investigated as such in Russia. One recent example was the killing of a 39-year-old man in Kamchatka in late May. Investigators suspect that three local villagers committed premeditated murder by beating and stabbing the victiim to death because he was gay.

Official statistics show 12 homophobic attacks in Russia last year, though activists at Moscow’s sociological NGO Sova Center says such numbers are almost meaningless, as assaults are rarely reported, and almost never recorded as hate crime incidents.

The adoption of the ‘gay propaganda law’ itself caused a number of clashes between gay rights defenders opposing the legislation and activists supporting it. On Friday, a resident of Voronezh city was sentenced to two months of corrective labor after being convicted of assaulting Pavel Lebedev, a member of a picket against the law. The judge found the young man guilty of kicking Lebedev in the stomach during the January 20 protest.

Gay activists claim there has been a sharp spike in violence against homosexuals in the past few weeks, claiming the new law gives homophobic gangs carte blanche to attack conspicuously-gay individuals in the name of “upholding the law”. However, exact numbers are impossible to collect reliably.

It must be propaganda