Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[NomeQueEuLembro]

WELCOME FELLAHS!

Do you remember this thread?
Yes, you do! (maybe not, whatever)

But now, with v0.40.14 even the Dwarf tought system is changed, so how will they behaviour play out? The same? Totally different? The fact that you can have a child feeling vengeful about a someone's else fight matters?

To figure that out, ladies and gentleman, I present you the first edition of the Wagon Experiment!

Frequently-asked (not really) questions:
Q: But, hmm, Sir whose name I just forgot, how is that gonna play out?[/li][/list]
A: Well, for the first edition the 7 dwarves are gonna be confined in the same space as the wagon. They're not gonna embark with nothing other than loads o' food, alcohol and 20 wooden blocks to seal them away from the world. I won't bother with imigrants right now.

Q: Wait, where are the results?
A: I still didn't even created the world. I'm gonna play the results in the thread, or maybe edit this thread, I don't know yet.

Q: What you mean by "first edition"? Are there gonna be more? I'm so excited!
A: Maybe. I have that feeling that justice might play a bigger role in this new version (since, well, nobody knows what a vengeful brat can do.

Q: How can I help?
A: Your feedback is enough. I accept suggestions, critics (just kidding) and all that stuff. You can even ask to be dorfed (up to 7), recreate the experiment (but please, post the findings here) and anything that will help discover how the new dwarven psychology works. Is it different? Is it not different? Dunno.


EDIT: Didn't knew that this "Pleasure" topic was about that.
EDIT 2: Kacothuling, "Confinedcrazes" has already embarked and... right on the side of a ocean lol

[taptap]

Just do it. I for one await the results.

[FritzPL]

Having read the past experiment, I'm eagerly awaiting the results of this dwarven reality show you're trying to get going.

[Slogo]

You'll need to put a roof on your starting embark or something if you're going to keep the dwarves protected now that things can climb.

You may also want to use advanced gen to up the embark points so you can bring more food and/or additional pairs of clothes if you want.

[dwarf_reform]

This sounds pretty classic :> The first problem I think you'd hit is probably the ability to use Therapist.. I'm totally uninformed, but I imagine this update probably gave them a bit of work to do before it gets updated to .14.. I'm tempted to document my own round of this now, give or take the wagon-trap :>

Maybe DF needs a secondary (optional) bottom-of-the-screen info-announcement spot to cover things like announcing weddings, grudges/feuds, any other important dwarven social events..

[Larix]

It's a bit of a letdown actually: they all just hang around and nothing happens. Chances of interesting relationships are minimal: in two attempts, i got one pair of lovers who never considered marriage. In the other case, one dwarf formed two grudges, but no-one ever acted on them. Sticking too many dwarfs into too small a room actually seems to freeze their relationships. Social skills will also develop extremely slowly, about five seasons to reach "novice" and by the end of the second year, no-one reached "adequate" in anything.

There's no real risk of them coming to harm if they're all walled up, and the standard number of embark points is enough for food and drink for two years. In my second round, two dwarfs fell in love after being released - they had spent two solid years practically on top of each other without going anywhere. It was probably a shared skill that made the difference. You might try giving them all one level of some skill, shared with one or two others (or allow them some practice in the skill?).

[dash27]

I am a bit behind the times on the latest changes, but i thought dwarfs socialized better in a meeting hall or eating in a room that is designated a dining area or water area.

[Ruhn]

I am a bit behind the times on the latest changes, but i thought dwarfs socialized better in a meeting hall or eating in a room that is designated a dining area or water area.

This sounds correct to me.  A wagon acts as one by default, but maybe room value has an effect.

[Larix]

In both cases, they were confined to a meeting hall. In the first case 4x5 with individualised beds and three sets of chairs and tables, in the second case 2x2, just holding a chair and table and two screwpump handles. In the second case, they were always super happy about the awesome architecture and did nothing but socialise (including several parties), but as i said, next to no skill gain in either "fort", and no noticeable relationship development while locked up. I suspect socialising's been changed somewhere in the 0.40 release cycle.

Dwarfs used to relate just fine in non-meeting areas. The only thing that seemed to matter was being in adjacent squares; what makes meeting areas effective is not some magic of the zone type, it's that they attract idlers and encourage them to hang around.

[NomeQueEuLembro]

The first season is over!

So, well, just for the start I kinda messed up the experiment:

• As you can see, it's right to the side of an ocean. However, it seens that the dwarfs neither get bad toughts because the waves nor good toughts because of the mist. So I guess it won't change anything.
• I forgot to bring in the roof materials, and even while I accidentaly bought some more it wasn't enough.
• Also, no chairs, tables or beds. So it's basically a bunch of grumpy dwarves standing in the rain or sleeping on rocks.
• Should I turn off invaders? Also, should I give 'em plant gathering so they have something to do? (Oh, yeah, I already did this one)

So, here are the results of the first season:

Spoiler: Blick (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Flick (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Glick (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Plick (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Quee (click to show/hide)

http://s23.postimg.org/f6j5r5z7u/Quee.jpg

Spoiler: Snick (click to show/hide)

http://s23.postimg.org/d9mfml8ju/Snick.jpg

Spoiler: Whick (click to show/hide)

http://s23.postimg.org/vrqs6tqbu/Whick.jpg

Edit: The first migrant wave has come. I have no clue what to do with them. My dwarves are currently restricted to a burrow and if I deactivate it they just get out of my barrier (Maybe climbing, but when I active it again they won't go back, oddly.

[taptap]

I just embarked in a sinister desert w/ aquifer - setting up necessities (and slaughtered and processed the horses) and moving everything underground away from the rain and preparing to push through aquifer. By 1st Felsite out of 21 social relationships, I have 1 heterosexual romance, 19 friendships, 1 friendly terms and all have all 8 available social skills on dabbling. I won't make a rigid research project, but I am a bit puzzled that this is a higher degree of bonding than some of you had w/ two years socialising. Maybe talking about the horrifying rain helped. I have designated a smallish meeting area.

Marriage/romance: how relevant is the personal aim "raise a family" in this? All my couples here and in the other fortress I run had at least one partner w/ this aim.

[NomeQueEuLembro]

Good questions. Dreams might take a greater role in this. Also, this new system about "stress" might be better to predict/control Tantrum Spirals, and that's great.

So, Autumm has come. Taking screenshots is kinda hard, so I'm gonna just talk about one by one:

Spoiler: Flick (click to show/hide)

Emotions:
Just annoyed about the situation. I miss the "Has been later" thing, because I'm not so sure how she's making it. She has a fondness one too.
Relationships:
Well, to begin with she doesn't like family or speech (all such info in the previous post). This may or may not take a part in how she formed her relationships. She's currently has two friends and 1 grudge. The other guys are in "Friendly Terms"

Spoiler: Glick (click to show/hide)

Emotions: Just annoyed.
Relationships: He has a negative view about those who exercice power over others. I'm not sure how much the white and blue texts are important, but the white text also say he likes to live in harmony.  He has 3 friends and no grudge.

Spoiler: Plick (click to show/hide)

Emotions: Ladies and gentleman, we've got someone who besides fondness feels love! Besides that just annoyed, and the main text is about being upset with the rain, too.
Relationships:One lover (this one is displayed above the deities) and two friends.

Spoiler: Quee (click to show/hide)

Emotions: Annoyed.
Relationships:Nothing to note. 2 friends, 1 grudge. I'm starting to think we should compare the personalities of friends and grudges.

Spoiler: Snick (click to show/hide)

Emotions: Annoyed.
Relationships: First, the white text says he does not easily hate or develop negative feelings. That being said he has 2 grudges and 2 friends.

Spoiler: Blick (click to show/hide)

Emotions: "I talked to my lover. I feel such love!" - He feels such love, fondness and annoyance
Relationships:One lover and two friends, cool.

Spoiler: Whick (click to show/hide)

Emotions: Annoyed and one foundness
Relationships:3 friends

Edit: Sleeping dwarfs don't think, pretty cool. The imigrant is "exasperated" because of the rain, "irritated" because of hunger/drowsynes/thirsty and she "panicked" because when dehydrated. Also, some dwarves went "on break" lol
The only thing they do are complaining about the rain, socializing and pull a few plants from the ground now and there.

[taptap]

Autumm has come.

Notable social skills, attribute changes?

My dwarves are mid-hematite (= 3 month on the embark). 2 romances, 19 friendships (= all are either friends or involved) - working on the second aquifer layer. Second couple has no one with raising a family aim. Two of my dwarves worship "Tarem Gutshag the lustful froth", if that matters. Social skills still dabbling.

Outside the desert is a huge pool of horrid slush but inside my guys and gals are cosy. "Isn't it great to be surrounded by family?" is the current mood of one. Several enjoy the aquifer breaking a lot (being relieved by the waterfall or enjoy being cleaned from the rain). They all made plenty of friends, obviously.

Somewhat later: 3 romances and all friendships. Takeaway: Don't socialize in the rain, but in the waterfall - embark at a 2-z-level aquifer (The bonding is quite important for my low pop cap natural growth approach - had another fortress run 5 years w/o that much bonding and only 1 marriage and 1 romance.)

[TBeholder]

It's a bit of a letdown actually: they all just hang around and nothing happens. Chances of interesting relationships are minimal: in two attempts, i got one pair of lovers who never considered marriage. In the other case, one dwarf formed two grudges, but no-one ever acted on them. Sticking too many dwarfs into too small a room actually seems to freeze their relationships. Social skills will also develop extremely slowly, about five seasons to reach "novice" and by the end of the second year, no-one reached "adequate" in anything.

I am a bit behind the times on the latest changes, but i thought dwarfs socialized better in a meeting hall or eating in a room that is designated a dining area or water area.

Yup.
Hmm. Maybe the wagon counts as a building and this prevents something? What if there was a little more place with little designated zones for meeting, dining, etc?

Dwarfs used to relate just fine in non-meeting areas. The only thing that seemed to matter was being in adjacent squares; what makes meeting areas effective is not some magic of the zone type, it's that they attract idlers and encourage them to hang around.

Maybe what matters is not the states, but events? As in, dwarves met, are hanging together, but they don't "meet" again until they'll part?  Whether it's about range or visual contact (we know that visual contact events are implemented, what's with witnesses and "found dead").

[Larix]

I'd very tentatively guess that socialising needs some kind of trigger now. Something like "can only have one socialising event per span of being "idle"" or somesuch; dwarfs who actually get to work and drag stuff around (and thus having many short stints of idle-ness) _seem_ to socialise better than a bunch of layabouts doing nothing but standing around in a fancy dining room.

My real-wagon-dwarfs did get a few "talked to a friend/lover" thoughts, but looking at how slowly social skills developed, that felt like they got something like six per season, i.e. about the number of interruptions of their idle time in the form of eating, drinking and sleeping.

That's all super speculative for now, but looking into "events" sounds like a promising avenue to me, and comparing a fort with a healthy mix of labours with substantial rates of idlers vs. busy-bee (no idlers on pain of death) and drone (nothing to do for a year or more) constellations.

For comparison: the original "the real wagon" thread was done in DF2010 (two full release cycles ago) and everyone became legendary in all social skills in under two years, doing nothing but sitting in place drinking, eating, sleeping and chatting. Seeing how in DF2012, long-term idling also built ludicrous social skills but  in DF2014 this setup wouldn't give adequate social skills in two years, i feel confident in saying that socialising mechanics have changed substantially.

PS: comparison study in 0.40.3 - before the full emotion re-write:
- relationships "froze" after locking the group up (three friendships, one grudge, rest friendly acquaintances, no change in almost two years)
- social skills went up quite quickly - "competent" to "proficient" by the end of spring, everybody legendary+ at the end of the first year. Soul attributes likewise improved somewhat: affinity with language, managing social relationships and reading emotions mainly; pure physical attributes like endurance seemed to decay slightly. I think that confirms that super-socialising of constant idlers has been written out of the game for 0.40.14.

Aside: in that version, the first two migrant waves are still guaranteed, so i ended up managing those as well. They started out with absolutely nothing, all food and all logs were walled in, but fortunately, the first migration wave contained a woodcutter, who even managed to cut down a few trees before he decided to try climbing, which worked as expected - resulted in a phantastically broken leg that required traction. Had to wait for the autumn caravan to get a pick and then gambled with that pick and the apprentice miner to smash through the one-level aquifer. A bit scary, but it worked. Treating the woodcutter took almost eleven months all told and brought two dwarfs from nothing to adequate diagnostician (and resulted in an infection for the woodcutter).