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Author Topic: Blue candy strands ignored when creating blue candy wafers and blue candy cloth.  (Read 1947 times)

Tacomagic

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I am playing 0.4.13. I haven't even set up burrows.
EDIT: I think it has something to do with dwarves moving the whole bin to continue storage labors, I'm not sure if they move the whole bin when they need one of the strands for creating wafers or cloth.

Dwarves have always done this.  Pretty much ever since bins were introduced.

You can stage things so that dwarves take them out of bins a few at a time onto a small stockpile so that bin shenanigans are less of a problem.
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Gokajern

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I am playing 0.4.13. I haven't even set up burrows.
EDIT: I think it has something to do with dwarves moving the whole bin to continue storage labors, I'm not sure if they move the whole bin when they need one of the strands for creating wafers or cloth.

Dwarves have always done this.  Pretty much ever since bins were introduced.

You can stage things so that dwarves take them out of bins a few at a time onto a small stockpile so that bin shenanigans are less of a problem.
Does it apply for production, storage or both?. I find it strange, my blue candy stuff production is usually a lot less complicated.
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Tacomagic

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I am playing 0.4.13. I haven't even set up burrows.
EDIT: I think it has something to do with dwarves moving the whole bin to continue storage labors, I'm not sure if they move the whole bin when they need one of the strands for creating wafers or cloth.

Dwarves have always done this.  Pretty much ever since bins were introduced.

You can stage things so that dwarves take them out of bins a few at a time onto a small stockpile so that bin shenanigans are less of a problem.
Does it apply for production, storage or both?. I find it strange, my blue candy stuff production is usually a lot less complicated.

It's most problematic with bins that can store a lot of items that get used for other things.  In this case, a thread bin is kind of a horrible thing if you have a textile industry or web collection running.  In fact, you might be able to nip this whole thing in the bud by disabling your loom and farming workshops while you do stuff with the adamantine.  Otherwise, the bin will keep getting grabbed to pick-up textiles as they get finished.

Let's use rope reed as an example.

Rope reed is processed at a farmer's shop into thread.  Somebody comes and grabs a bin with some room in it (in this case the same that have all your fibers in it) and run and go collect the thread.    Now, the bin already has a lot of stuff in it, so it's pretty heavy.  It takes them a while to drag the bin to the thread they're picking up and drag it back.  All the while, all the fiber-jobs are canceled because the bin isn't accessible (somebody else has it).  Meanwhile, other textile jobs are getting done that produce more thread and cloth.  The bin eventually makes it back to the stockpile, but with all the other textile jobs, it's almost immediately grabbed for another hauling task and dragged off.  By the time somebody gets around to trying to do a fiber job, the bin is gone again.

This is exacerbated by the fact that you can store a TON of thread in a single bin, so it'll bottleneck any job that needs something that's in that bin.

This can be solved in a number of ways.  First, don't use bins, or only use them for finished goods you intend to trade away or other low-use goods.  You can get around the need for bins with comprehensive minecart quantum stockpiles.

Second, you can create infeed and outfeed piles.  These are piles with bins disabled that are designed to stage your materials.

For example: 
You have 3 stockpiles: Infeed, holding, and outfeed.
The infeed pile is set to take from anywhere, has bins disabled, and is relatively small.  Haulers will drop off cloth and thread to this stockpile without using a bin.  This stockpile is set to give to the holding stockpile.
The holding pile has bins and can be however big you want.  This is set to take from links only, so it will only ever take from the infeed pile.  Workers will grab bins and move to the infeed pile and pick things up.  This pile is set to give to the outfeed pile (or piles).
The outfeed pile is typically targeted to a more narrow selection of goods from the holding pile (for instance, adamantine fiber) and will be fairly small say 2x2 or 3x3 and placed near the crafting workshop where the stuff will be made.  Haulers will pick up the items from the holding pile to try to keep the outfeed pile stocked.

My preference is quantum piles, or specifically targetted piles for certain applications (like a special pile to hold my adamantine).  3-stage piles are good for what they are, but they require quite a bit more labor than QSPs.  Pretty much I use multi-stage piles most when I'm doing a lot of plant gathering.  Using a feeder pile, I can force the gatherers to use a stockpile with barrels disabled, keeping them from dragging a barrel out to the surface and back just to get a handful of berries.

QSPs have the added benefit of improving FPS a bit, so they're usually my choice of management strategy.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 11:02:36 pm by Tacomagic »
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Kumquat

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Infeed and outfeed piles do not really work - dworfs will never take things out of a bin to move them to another stockpile, and when collecting stuff they ignore stockpile linking entirely (after the first item) and grab anything nearby that qualifies for picking up into a bin. A dwarf with a bin is like a neat freak with a vacuum cleaner.

Minecart QSPs are pretty much the only problem-free solution, and they do respect linkages properly.
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Larix

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Not having a thread stockpile also works. You can't only store humongous amounts of thread in a bin, you can also "store" ridiculous amounts in a workshop when only the other thread-using workshops will take it. This completely cuts out all the hauling jobs a QSP solution will still require, but of course needs a very compact workshop architecture - the loom must sit pretty much on top of the farmer's workshop.
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Tacomagic

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Infeed and outfeed piles do not really work - dworfs will never take things out of a bin to move them to another stockpile, and when collecting stuff they ignore stockpile linking entirely (after the first item) and grab anything nearby that qualifies for picking up into a bin. A dwarf with a bin is like a neat freak with a vacuum cleaner.

Minecart QSPs are pretty much the only problem-free solution, and they do respect linkages properly.

Could have sworn I saw them removing stuff from bins back when I was using outfeeds.  I'll have to play with that.

Maybe they were just moving stuff to the holding without a container and then quickly moving it to the outfeed.   That's always possible, I suppose, especially since bins tend to only sit on an active pile for a few seconds unless they're completely full.  Once I have stuff set up, I rarely keep my eye on them beyond making sure stuff is getting places.
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Max™

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Yeah, I had the baffling experience of taking a turn in a fort with massive stockpiles full of bins and barrels everywhere, so I decided to condense them into localized QSP's, which worked great for most of them.

Then I noticed that the bars pile and the armor/trap components piles were constantly full of a huge number of dwarves tossing bins into them, putting the bins in the QSP, grabbing something out of the QSP, putting it into a bin, putting the bin into the big pile, putting the bin into the QSP, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, forever. Had the same problem with a foodpile that I let hold barrels, constant loops of dorfs filling/removing/refilling/replacing/removing/etc/etc/etc with no end.

Disabling the bins/barrels in the feeder piles and QSP piles lets the dorfs toss the bin/barrel into the QSP without trying to put it back into the feeder pile endlessly.

Generally I avoid bins as much as possible since I got used to minecart QSP setups, to the point that I use the shift+enter "select and move down" to spam through the huge leather shipments, which selects the whole bin, then selects the individual leather and leaves the bin for the caravan to take back with them.

Can't avoid barrels though.
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Koremu

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I believe that as long as a stockpile has never had bins enabled while time is running, things will be removed from bins and be put into them properly.

If the stockpile ever has bins enabled while time ticks, even for a single tick, then things will never be removed from bins to move into them.

So you have to build your stockpiles while paused and not make any mistakes for it to work properly.
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It's a dwarf.  Their natural habitat is "trapped on the wrong side of a wall".

Flinging children halfway across the map to land in magma is good, wholesome fun, but extramarital reproduction?  Why, that's just unseemly!

klefenz

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There was a bug about candy thread not being stored alone, only with other kinds of thread. It caused lots of cancelations from the workshop.
I think it hasnt been fixed yet.

Tacomagic

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I believe that as long as a stockpile has never had bins enabled while time is running, things will be removed from bins and be put into them properly.

If the stockpile ever has bins enabled while time ticks, even for a single tick, then things will never be removed from bins to move into them.

So you have to build your stockpiles while paused and not make any mistakes for it to work properly.

That could explain it, then.  I always set up complex stockpiles with linkages while paused because I don't want them creating lots of erroneous hauling jobs for stuff I don't even want on the pile.
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