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[Cheeetar]

Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?

Varee, Scripten, Persus Oh how Ironic that my top three suspects at the moment were the ones who extended. I expect you guys to actually make use of this extension to it's full potential, so my vote will be on whichever one of you was the least recent one to post. Currently, that's... Persus. As soon as you post, of course, this means my vote will move to scripten or varee.

This is a good starting point for today's discussion, given that it comes from a posthumously confirmed townie.
Persus13, your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort for not having voted, and your only vote after that was a retaliatory vote on him. It seems that initially you only voted for him because of his case on you (which seemed legitimate in parts, esp. regarding your "I see nobody scummy so I'm not going to vote for people" passivity thing.)

Scripten, why did you ask NQT for his opinion on Persus13's vote possibly being an OMGUS (why didn't you comment on it yourself?)

[Persus13]

Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?

Persus13, your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort for not having voted, and your only vote after that was a retaliatory vote on him. It seems that initially you only voted for him because of his case on you (which seemed legitimate in parts, esp. regarding your "I see nobody scummy so I'm not going to vote for people" passivity thing.)

No, because the jailkeeper protects the person they blocked as well. So either they blocked scum, or scum attacked the person they blocked.

I don't really understand what you're saying about the extension. I extended because I saw the day was going to end with barely any discussion.
As for my vote, I voted for flabort because of this post:

PFW

EBWOP:

Persus, Worldmaster: The day ends today, and you haven't used your votes yet. Are you OK with just sitting on the sidelines, letting RVS continue?

Yes, because I have yet to see anything really scummy yet.

Extend, I'll post more after class.

How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.

Which attacks me for lurking because of RL reasons, which is something I get annoyed at because its something you shouldn't do, as well as for "asking two RVS questions" which is a ridiculous thing to attack someone for, and having no desire to hunt scum, which is something I can't really show through 1 post. My vote stayed because he started dodging questions, using weird metaphors to show his point, and touting himself as the greatest townie ever. I don't see that case as legitimate, and I'm done using my vote in RVS, because it cheapens the vote.

Worldmaster:

Everyone: Please let me know if there are questions that I missed, and that you want answered. It didn't seem like there were many, but I likely missed some.

Here's one:
Early on you said I was your top suspect in an answer to another question. Why didn't you vote me?

[Cheeetar]

Varee: How useful are Flabort's posts in Day 1 to us now?

Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?

No, because the jailkeeper protects the person they blocked as well. So either they blocked scum, or scum attacked the person they blocked.

Rookie mistake on my end. Apologies.

Persus13, your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort for not having voted, and your only vote after that was a retaliatory vote on him. It seems that initially you only voted for him because of his case on you (which seemed legitimate in parts, esp. regarding your "I see nobody scummy so I'm not going to vote for people" passivity thing.)

I don't really understand what you're saying about the extension. I extended because I saw the day was going to end with barely any discussion.
As for my vote, I voted for flabort because of this post:

How about lurking, not participating in RVS by only asking two token questions, and having no desire to hunt scum? I can name one person doing that, Persus13.

Which attacks me for lurking because of RL reasons, which is something I get annoyed at because its something you shouldn't do, as well as for "asking two RVS questions" which is a ridiculous thing to attack someone for, and having no desire to hunt scum, which is something I can't really show through 1 post. My vote stayed because he started dodging questions, using weird metaphors to show his point, and touting himself as the greatest townie ever. I don't see that case as legitimate, and I'm done using my vote in RVS, because it cheapens the vote.

By 'your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort' I mean that you voted for extension (had a problem with the day ending so quickly) only after Flabort had pointed it out specifically to you. The problem with 'RL reasons' as an excuse for lurking is that there's no way to prove or disprove it. It is not a ridiculous thing to attack someone for. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there's nothing scummy about being skeptical of it.

Having no desire to hunt scum was, I assume, a reference to your earlier posts: You were acting scummy earlier, he didn't expect you to immediately hunt all the scum in one post, he was merely pointing out that your lack of scumhunting earlier was scummy in his eyes. No?

Also: Do you believe Random Vote Stage has any purpose whatsoever? Would you prefer to play a Mafia game where people didn't engage in it?

[Scripten]

Scripten: Now that your number 1 lynch target flipped town, what are you going to do? Did you have any other suspects?

All things considered, Flabort's play struck me as eminently scummy. His case on Persus13 was poor, sure, but there was also the fact that his wording felt dodgy and he never really felt like he was operating genuinely with the rest of the town. Therefore, I was expecting him to flip scum. That said, his town flip DOES illuminate a few things for me. Maybe you guys are also seeing this.

Notably, let's take a look at NGT's table of reads:

Spoiler: "Reads List" (click to show/hide)

So Flabort is almost exclusively scumread. (Persus13 isn't listed as having a scum read on him, but I think it's pretty obvious that he did.) We can all agree on that. But look at NQT's read on Flabort. That's some pretty solid green there, isn't it? Almost as if he knew Flabort was going to flip town. Also, check this out:

Spoiler: "NQT's Associative Reads" (click to show/hide)

TheDarkStar - Most likely scum buddy: Scripten (they both have nice things to say about each other). Least likely scum buddy: Flabort (they both have scum reads on one another)
Scripten - Most likely scum buddy: anyone except Flabort. Least likely scum buddy: Flabort
Urist Imiknorris/Cheetah - Most likely scum buddy: almost anyone. Least likely scum buddy: Worldmaster
Flabort - Most likely scum partner: Deathsword is pretty much the only option here (they both give each other null reads, everyone else hates Flabort). Least likely scum partner: everyone other than Deathsword.
Varee - Most likely scum partner: pretty much even chance of Cheetah, Scripten or TDS at this stage. Least likely scum partner: Flabort.
Persus13 - Most likely scum partner: Scripten or TDS. Least likely scum partner: Flabort.
WorldMaster - Most likely scum partner: Scripten. Least likely scum partner: Cheetah.
Deathsword -  Most likely scum partner: Flabort. Least likely scum partner: Varee.

Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort. Pretty clever way to clear another player, to have their only viable scumbuddy flip town, no? And NQT had his vote on Deathsword come the end of the day. They couldn't possibly be a scumteam if he was voting him so close to deadline, right? Smells majorly scummy.

Right now, my money's on an NQT/Deathsword scumteam.

Vote NQT

Scripten, why did you ask NQT for his opinion on Persus13's vote possibly being an OMGUS (why didn't you comment on it yourself?)

To avoid coloring his response with my own opinion. I commented later on down the page.

Question Time!

NQT: So, let's do some hypothetical legwork.

If you were scum, who would you have targeted last night?
If you were the cop, who would you have investigated last night?
If you were the jailer, who would you have jailed last night?

No need for the why, but feel free to include it if you want.

[Persus13]

By 'your vote for extension was at the poking of Flabort' I mean that you voted for extension (had a problem with the day ending so quickly) only after Flabort had pointed it out specifically to you.

Yes, but not because Flabort pointed it out. I did more because Jack A T had just posted a vote count and noted that the day had ended that day.

The problem with 'RL reasons' as an excuse for lurking is that there's no way to prove or disprove it. It is not a ridiculous thing to attack someone for. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but there's nothing scummy about being skeptical of it.

If that hadn't been his one argument that he was basing everything else on besides ridiculing my questions/answers, I wouldn't have found it scummy. I agree that it isn't too scummy, but it is a bit of an asshole move.

Having no desire to hunt scum was, I assume, a reference to your earlier posts: You were acting scummy earlier, he didn't expect you to immediately hunt all the scum in one post, he was merely pointing out that your lack of scumhunting earlier was scummy in his eyes. No?

Yes, I still don't see what was wrong with my first post is the problem.

Also: Do you believe Random Vote Stage has any purpose whatsoever? Would you prefer to play a Mafia game where people didn't engage in it?

The question part, yes, because that gets the conversation going. The voting part did to try and pressure people and get them to slip up, but everyone is so used to it that there's no point to it anymore, except causing new players to panic and act scummy, and new players inevitably get a lot of attention anyway. And when players do start voting seriously, sometimes players confuse it for an RVS vote and blow it off, cheapening the vote. As for your second question, that is a set-up question where your response to my inevitable yes is a "so why don't you vote" type question.

Scripten: So your case on NQT is that he voted Deathsword instead of flabort and tried to convince everyone that flabort and Deathsword were buddies so that when flabort flipped town Deathsword would be thought of as town? Why does NQT seeing flabort as town mean he's scum instead of just smart town? Does the fact that NQT looks more at reads, votes, posts and activity instead of the traditional scumtells change your opinion at all? Would town NQT behave differently from the way NQT is behaving now?

All things considered, Flabort's play struck me as eminently scummy. His case on Persus13 was poor, sure, but there was also the fact that his wording felt dodgy and he never really felt like he was operating genuinely with the rest of the town. Therefore, I was expecting him to flip scum. That said, his town flip DOES illuminate a few things for me. Maybe you guys are also seeing this.

I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.

Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.

No, Deathsword could have been scumbuddies with almost everyone except NQT and Varee (possibly Cheeetar too). Say q can only be used with a u after it, but that doesn't mean u can be used elsewhere.


NQT: Is it possible to see your table of reads in text form? Otherwise I can't understand part of Scripten's case on you.

[Scripten]

Scripten: So your case on NQT is that he voted Deathsword instead of flabort and tried to convince everyone that flabort and Deathsword were buddies so that when flabort flipped town Deathsword would be thought of as town?

I find it suspect that he linked those two together so closely.

Why does NQT seeing flabort as town mean he's scum instead of just smart town? Does the fact that NQT looks more at reads, votes, posts and activity instead of the traditional scumtells change your opinion at all? Would town NQT behave differently from the way NQT is behaving now?

This feels like an appeal to authority, where NQT's skill as a player overrides any potentially suspicious actions he takes. I've had very limited interactions with NQT, so I'm working entirely on what I've seen in this thread. Have you noticed how inconsistent his associatives were with his reads? His strongest town reads have the broadest associative reads, except for Flabort. Both myself and Cheetar could be scum with anyone, but Flabort is specifically only likely to be scum with Deathsword.

I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.

Good thing you read the other 80% of my post, then, because I explained exactly where I stand with my scumreads and began to move forward to work those reads.

Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.

No, Deathsword could have been scumbuddies with almost everyone except NQT and Varee (possibly Cheeetar too). Say q can only be used with a u after it, but that doesn't mean u can be used elsewhere.

I wouldn't expect it to be that blatant. Like we've established, NQT is a good player. I don't expect that he would slip up that hard.

[Persus13]

Why does NQT seeing flabort as town mean he's scum instead of just smart town? Does the fact that NQT looks more at reads, votes, posts and activity instead of the traditional scumtells change your opinion at all? Would town NQT behave differently from the way NQT is behaving now?

This feels like an appeal to authority, where NQT's skill as a player overrides any potentially suspicious actions he takes. I've had very limited interactions with NQT, so I'm working entirely on what I've seen in this thread. Have you noticed how inconsistent his associatives were with his reads? His strongest town reads have the broadest associative reads, except for Flabort. Both myself and Cheetar could be scum with anyone, but Flabort is specifically only likely to be scum with Deathsword.

Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.

I didn't ask for a recapitulation of your case on flabort. I asked for what your plan was moving forward. Besides voting NQT, what else do you think you are going to do.

Good thing you read the other 80% of my post, then, because I explained exactly where I stand with my scumreads and began to move forward to work those reads.

By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.

[Scripten]

Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.

What does this have to do with what I said? I'm not calling him out for making reads lists or compiling data. I'm noting how the data/cases he's presented do not agree with themselves and presenting reasoning for why scum-NQT would act in this way.

By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.

I don't see why I should have to go after people outside of my scumreads, especially when they have not appeared in the thread since Day 2 started. Why are you trying to push me away from pursuing a case against NQT?

When more things happen today, I will make note of them and, if they are alignment-indicative, I will adapt my reads to fit the data.

[Persus13]

Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.

What does this have to do with what I said? I'm not calling him out for making reads lists or compiling data. I'm noting how the data/cases he's presented do not agree with themselves and presenting reasoning for why scum-NQT would act in this way.

That's me not understanding why you think it is inconsistent. If everyone thought one person was scummy, does that make them town or scum in your opinion?

By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.

I don't see why I should have to go after people outside of my scumreads, especially when they have not appeared in the thread since Day 2 started. Why are you trying to push me away from pursuing a case against NQT?

When more things happen today, I will make note of them and, if they are alignment-indicative, I will adapt my reads to fit the data.

I'm not pushing you away from him, I'm trying to understand your case and trying to get you to make it better. I also doubt that your suspicion against NQT is the only one you have as a result of yesterday and so want to push you to ask more questions and spread a wider net. You should go after people outside of your scumreads because those scumreads can constrain you. You need to be aware that you can be wrong. What will you do if an NQT lynch reveals he's town? scum?

Unvote

Vote returns to TheDarkStar.

[Scripten]

That's me not understanding why you think it is inconsistent. If everyone thought one person was scummy, does that make them town or scum in your opinion?

Depends. If every single player is happily voting for a single player, then I would be very suspicious, especially on day 1, because that indicates that any potential scumbuddy they may have is busing them very early on. Having a few nulls and a town read or two on the player I'm voting makes me more confident that my scum read is correct.

Also, when one player finds a person being scumread really hard to be fairly solid town, it looks a lot like setting up a situation to garner town cred later on, so when my scumreads flip town, that's sometimes where I look.

I'm not pushing you away from him, I'm trying to understand your case and trying to get you to make it better. I also doubt that your suspicion against NQT is the only one you have as a result of yesterday and so want to push you to ask more questions and spread a wider net. You should go after people outside of your scumreads because those scumreads can constrain you. You need to be aware that you can be wrong. What will you do if an NQT lynch reveals he's town? scum?

Oh, don't worry, I'm more than well aware that I can be wrong. Obviously I was wrong about flabort, and I'm usually wrong about the scumteam when I play town. I just don't have any predetermined plans to follow right now outside of pursuing my scumreads. When they reply to me, I will most likely widen my net, but until then, I intend to push my case fully unless something comes up.

If NQT flips town, I'm going to have to reassess again. We'll see where the game state is at if that situation comes along. If he flips town, then it's time to hammer in my associative reads.

Question for you, Persus13. Was your vote on me entirely for pressure? If so, did you expect that my answers would be insufficient without pressure? If not, what about my explanation made your read on me shift?

[notquitethere]

(Working on a long post now)

[Persus13]

Question for you, Persus13. Was your vote on me entirely for pressure? If so, did you expect that my answers would be insufficient without pressure? If not, what about my explanation made your read on me shift?

No, NQT is being read by a lot of people as town, so scum might be interested in changing that around. I felt your case was a bit on the weak side. I unvoted because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to push you away from voting NQT, just prodding your case, and because you seemed pretty sincere with your case. In addition, I wanted to see NQT's response to your attack on him, and I really want to hear from TheDarkStar, because I want to see him scumhunt more.

[Scripten]

No, NQT is being read by a lot of people as town, so scum might be interested in changing that around. I felt your case was a bit on the weak side. I unvoted because I wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to push you away from voting NQT, just prodding your case, and because you seemed pretty sincere with your case. In addition, I wanted to see NQT's response to your attack on him, and I really want to hear from TheDarkStar, because I want to see him scumhunt more.

Regarding the bolded statement: Why do you think scum would try to get a difficult target like NQT lynched? Don't you think they'd go for the easiest mislynch bait?

Everything else in that post is solid. Lurking is going to kill this game...

[notquitethere]

Posting from phone, will do proper analysis/questioning over the weekend.

Scripten

If [Flabort] were to flip town today, I'd probably go for Worldmaster27, since he feels a little detached from the events unfolding.

Do you still think World master is detached?

Notably, let's take a look at NGT's table of reads:

Spoiler: "Reads List" (click to show/hide)

So Flabort is almost exclusively scumread. (Persus13 isn't listed as having a scum read on him, but I think it's pretty obvious that he did.) We can all agree on that. But look at NQT's read on Flabort. That's some pretty solid green there, isn't it? Almost as if he knew Flabort was going to flip town.

Yes, I was pretty sure that Flabort was going to flip town for all the good reasons I mentioned. I have the same info all the other town players have, just a better understanding of how town players actually play.

Also, check this out:

Spoiler: "NQT's Associative Reads" (click to show/hide)

TheDarkStar - Most likely scum buddy: Scripten (they both have nice things to say about each other). Least likely scum buddy: Flabort (they both have scum reads on one another)
Scripten - Most likely scum buddy: anyone except Flabort. Least likely scum buddy: Flabort
Urist Imiknorris/Cheetah - Most likely scum buddy: almost anyone. Least likely scum buddy: Worldmaster
Flabort - Most likely scum partner: Deathsword is pretty much the only option here (they both give each other null reads, everyone else hates Flabort). Least likely scum partner: everyone other than Deathsword.
Varee - Most likely scum partner: pretty much even chance of Cheetah, Scripten or TDS at this stage. Least likely scum partner: Flabort.
Persus13 - Most likely scum partner: Scripten or TDS. Least likely scum partner: Flabort.
WorldMaster - Most likely scum partner: Scripten. Least likely scum partner: Cheetah.
Deathsword -  Most likely scum partner: Flabort. Least likely scum partner: Varee.

Flabort shows up as a likely scumbuddy on one(!) other player. Deathsword. Interesting. So that scum read NQT has on Deathsword seems to only support scum-Flabort.

My argument was that if Flabort were scum, only one player (Deathsword) could realistically be his partner given how everyone else had acted towards him. I've got a list of every possible scum-team combo and I've been eliminating the least likely combos based on people's behaviour. As I tried to made clear in my reads, Deathsword could have been a scum partner with quite a few players because most people gave him a null read and weren't voting him.

Pretty clever way to clear another player, to have their only viable scumbuddy flip town, no? And NQT had his vote on Deathsword come the end of the day. They couldn't possibly be a scumteam if he was voting him so close to deadline, right? Smells majorly scummy.

But I don't think Deathsword is cleared in the slightest. I voted Deathsword because he was the least engaged player who could have formed the most possible teams on D1. Now I have more info, you and TheDarkStar are looking like better lynch candidates (again, I want to look over my notes before I start forming fresh cases).

Now I've explained where I was coming from, do you still think you have a case?

NQT: So, let's do some hypothetical legwork.

If you were scum, who would you have targeted last night?
If you were the cop, who would you have investigated last night?
If you were the jailer, who would you have jailed last night?

No need for the why, but feel free to include it if you want.

I think scum most likely targeted me last night, but if I was in fact scum then I'd have killed Cheetah. If I tell you who I'd have jailed/investigated and I picked scum names, then the scum would know which of those roles I am not, and that is too much information to give to them. Do you disagree?


Cheetah

I didn't tie the votes, honest.

Sorry, it was the early hours of the morning and in my tired state I miscounted.

I find it odd that NQT doesn't find it odd or even notable that I find Flabort scummy but I'm not voting for him when he's close to being lynched.

Your reason here was a good reason to switch votes. I was reasonable sure Flabort was town, so I didn't find someone moving away from a town lynch to be suspicious. It'd have been more suspicious if you'd have done it when there was zero chance of an alternative being lynched, but someone else could definitely have swapped votes as well in those last few hours.

Let me posit my own scumteam in the event of Flabort flipping scum: NQT/Flabort.

Well you were right about us being on the same team...

Mathematically- would it be a good idea for the jailer to claim jailer and who they blocked, as it was almost certainly scum?

I think the correct play is to keep quiet unless you're about to be lynched, and work towards pressing a case on your suspect. Worst case they claim, we lynch the N1 night kill target and then scum kill the jailor N2.


Worldmaster

Based on how it is now? For flipping town, I'd probably vote Varee, who I find second most scummy, but I'd rather scumhunt before voting. For flipping scum, I would likely shift my focus to Varee or Deathsword who seem to be the most impartial to flabort.

Reasonable response. Do you see anything scummy in today's posts?


Jack I'm fine with 24 hour extensions.


Persus

NQT: I guess you were vindicated about flabort. Do you still use vote stats at all? Are you going to continue to go after Deathsword or has the break and the flip given you a better target?

I do still use vote stats and I'm disappointed at least two town players couldn't see how terrible a lynch candidate Flabort was. I'm working on my phone here, when I get back to a real computer I'll reassess the evidence and recalibrate my suspicions. Deathsword would still make a good target, but before my final decision on Monday, I want to see a lot more cases from everyone.

NQT: Is it possible to see your table of reads in text form? Otherwise I can't understand part of Scripten's case on you.

As soon as I get to a real computer, sure. I just colour coded everyone's reads as I've done in previous games.

[TheDarkStar]

TheDarkStar: What is the least likely scum team currently? Most likely? When was the last time you did some scumhunting?

[joke]flabort and anyone for least likely[/joke]

Actually, Deathsword/Varee for their arguing, and UI/worldmaster for their mutual scum reads. As for most likely, UI/NQT for their mutual strong town read on each other.

I apologize for my lowered activity; it turns out that being an IC takes a lot of effort, so I wasn't able to post as often as normal. I'll read over things a bit more and get a better idea. With Day 1 done and lots of reads, there should be enough to find at least one of the scum.