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Hahahahahaha!

7 (41.2%)

Nooooooooooo!

10 (58.8%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[gman8181]

fate-al illness

Made me laugh.

[Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum]

Well, currently proposal 18.00 wouldn't really change anything, there are still enough souls to take a few out every generation. I don't see much wrong with that...

[Andres]

It only allows us to take 5% of the reincarnates before a penalty is applied. 5% is a very small percentage. Changing it to 100% is a big difference. Keep in mind that if the proposal passes, souls in the afterlife still won't be able to worship. Only living souls can worship.

[Stirk]

It only allows us to take 5% of the reincarnates before a penalty is applied. 5% is a very small percentage. Changing it to 100% is a big difference. Keep in mind that if the proposal passes, souls in the afterlife still won't be able to worship. Only living souls can worship.

No it isn't. That is having 1 of 20 humans in your little heaven. If you where around when the world was generated, you would have been able to fight. Why not just deal with how everyone else made the world?

[Andres]

Why do I have to deal with it? Why can't I change it? There's no rule saying that seniority is law and just because a world has already been made doesn't mean it can't be changed later. This is a god game. The whole point of it is so that we do what we want and if we change our minds later then so be it.

[Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum]

I'm confused though... The reincarnation cycle exists for a reason. That reason is so that souls don't run out...

I guess you could take humans out and give them a regular afterlife thing, but the other gods probably won't help you with that. You will have to just do it yourself.

[Andres]

I'm confused though... The reincarnation cycle exists for a reason. That reason is so that souls don't run out...

Yeah. Apparently that was chosen instead of just increasing the spawn rate of souls. I'm guessing it was because it was cheaper to do so than to implement afterlives and the systems required to do so. Now all of that stuff is in place and an alternative system can be used - simultaneously - to accommodate different wants and needs (not gonna lie - including my own. Nothing wrong with that though, assuming nobody else gets penalised for it.)

I guess you could take humans out and give them a regular afterlife thing, but the other gods probably won't help you with that. You will have to just do it yourself.

Actually that's already happening. It's just that doing so is preventing new sapients from being born. The proposal would eliminate that problem with no negative repercussions, assuming you don't subscribe to 'change is bad'.

EDIT: If, for some reason, there are negative repercussions, we can just vote to undo the proposal. Personally, I think we should at least see what would happen if we passed this seemingly innocuous proposal.

[Stirk]

Why do I have to deal with it? Why can't I change it? There's no rule saying that seniority is law and just because a world has already been made doesn't mean it can't be changed later. This is a god game. The whole point of it is so that we do what we want and if we change our minds later then so be it.

"But it doesn't mean you can change major aspects of our creation on a whim. We debated having an afterlife early on. We voted on reincarnation instead. So that is the way the worlds works. But you? You are simply ignoring all the world building, instead acting on your own. Which is fine, you can even take 1 out of every 20 followers to your heaven without seeing any effects. But changing the reality we worked towards for such a petty reason of "Not wanting to lose essence gain whiles still having my heaven" is, quite frankly, insulting to all of the thought we put into the world. You want to have your cake and eat it too, destroying our creation needlessly to do so!"

Yeah. Apparently that was chosen instead of just increasing the spawn rate of souls. I'm guessing it was because it was cheaper to do so than to implement afterlives and the systems required to do so. Now all of that stuff is in place and an alternative system can be used - simultaneously - to accommodate different wants and needs (not gonna lie - including my own. Nothing wrong with that though, assuming nobody else gets penalised for it.)

Why don't you go see the debates at world creation? They where quite interesting. Then you would see why we did what we did.

Actually that's already happening. It's just that doing so is preventing new sapients from being born. The proposal would eliminate that problem with no negative repercussions, assuming you don't subscribe to 'change is bad'.

Nothin' good ever happens from messing with souls. What is wrong with the current system? You don't need to fix something that isn't broken.

[Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum]

I guess you could take humans out and give them a regular afterlife thing, but the other gods probably won't help you with that. You will have to just do it yourself.

Actually that's already happening. It's just that doing so is preventing new sapients from being born. The proposal would eliminate that problem with no negative repercussions, assuming you don't subscribe to 'change is bad'.

No actually, it isn't preventing sapients from being born. I don't know why you thought that, but the population is increasing. Having an afterlife just makes it slower as long as you don't take too many souls out.

And you could increase the humans growth rate by yourself.

$$$ how much would it cost to change humanity into an afterlife from a reincarnation cycle?

[Andres]

What is wrong with the current system? You don't need to fix something that isn't broken.

I've cut out the rest of your quote because my counter-arguments were basically just my previous arguments. To that statement though, I'll just say that, depending on your point of view, there either IS a flaw (alternate soul systems are punished), or that it's merely an improvement rather than a fix.

No actually, it isn't preventing sapients from being born. I don't know why you thought that, but the population is increasing. Having an afterlife just makes it slower as long as you don't take too many souls out.

And you could increase the humans growth rate by yourself.

$$$ how much would it cost to change humanity into an afterlife from a reincarnation cycle?

Ok, so it's not preventing sapients from being born yet but it will if it goes over 5%. I'd like it so that population growth happens regardless of afterlives or reincarnation or whatever.

One: that costs Essence. Two: from an IC perspective I don't like altering my followers too much unless it's individual, positive, and basically consensual. I lowered the Heretic curse from 10-15 years to 5 years because of that modus operandi (that's the right term to use here, right?) Besides that, increasing birth rates might have unintended consequences like worship quality decreasing or something.

So you want to make humans HAVE to go to afterlives? That could work, but unless Proposal 18.00 is passed there won't be any more human babies being born because of reasons already discussed. Unless that's covered in that proposal of yours.

[Stirk]

I've cut out the rest of your quote because my counter-arguments were basically just my previous arguments. To that statement though, I'll just say that, depending on your point of view, there either IS a flaw (alternate soul systems are punished), or that it's merely an improvement rather than a fix.

"If you are not even going to address my argument, immortal fool, then I shal let it die. I doubt you can convince the council with such an attitude, I do not see why I should even give a pretense of hearing you out. Your proposal is greedy, short sighted, self-centered, foolish, and destructive. If you want all humans to go to your heaven so bad, just take them there. You will no longer gain essence, but if you want it so badly you may have it. Again, I doubt anyone else will see merit in something so focused on you, so I can simply ignore it and it will die anyway. As a fair warning, if somehow it does come to pass and is as horrible as I fear, you will be the one to pay for this madness."

[Andres]

Dude. The GM told us very clearly to keep IC and OOC separate. Not entirely sure if it applies here in this situation but be careful.

if somehow it does come to pass and is as horrible as I fear, you will be the one to pay for this madness.

OOC: That would be unlikely. A while ago I proposed a system that would allow gods to be punished by the council but it failed to get enough votes and was heavily opposed.

I still don't know what negative consequences everyone else keeps alluding to. Is it some kind of in-joke or something? Something obvious that I'm simply not getting?

Just in case it's not clearly understood, not all humans will go to the Human Plane or the Shadow Realm even if the proposal passes. They still have to worship Yaos as their primary deity to go to either. Sorry if this sounds condescending again but it's well-known that in heated arguments facts may be lost or misinterpreted and it's hard to tell how someone thinks of something over the Internet. Being clear on all variables and stuff helps in this regard.

[Stirk]

Dude. The GM told us very clearly to keep IC and OOC separate. Not entirely sure if it applies here in this situation but be careful.

That is because you where bringing IC stuff to OOC. I am bringing OOC stuff to IC, which is completely different. Your arguments are obviously directed at Fusil, not Stirk, so it wouldn't make much since for Stirk to respond to them. It doesn't make much since to debate OOC, anyway. I am a completely different person than Fusil, and we both would respond to this in real-life differently. So I respond to your arguments through Fusil's viewpoint, as my own are nor relevant under the circumstances.

OOC: That would be unlikely. A while ago I proposed a system that would allow gods to be punished by the council but it failed to get enough votes and was heavily opposed.

It was stupidly overpowered. That is why it failed. We are on the OOC thread, it is likely that you are OOC anyway.

I still don't know what negative consequences everyone else keeps alluding to. Is it some kind of in-joke or something? Something obvious that I'm simply not getting?

"It means I will kill you. I don't need a council to do damage. "

(See? It would be weird for me to threaten you. Fusil can threaten to kill Yaos, though)

As for the last point, as I said I and Fusil are both perfectly clear on it. Fusil just hates the idea with the fiery passion he always has.

[Andres]

That is because you where bringing IC stuff to OOC.

I am?

Your arguments are obviously directed at Fusil, not Stirk, so it wouldn't make much since for Stirk to respond to them. It doesn't make much since to debate OOC, anyway. I am a completely different person than Fusil, and we both would respond to this in real-life differently. So I respond to your arguments through Fusil's viewpoint, as my own are nor relevant under the circumstances.

Ah, I see what you mean by bringing IC to OOC (and vice-versa). Yeah, it wasn't my intention to do so. Didn't even know I was doing it until right now. I thought that you (Stirk) might have misinterpreted some of the things I said on IC and that was adversely affecting the discussion that was happening there, so I brought the debate here on OOC to sort out the misunderstandings and thus go back to IC with a clear head and knowing what the actual hell is going on.

It was stupidly overpowered. That is why it failed. We are on the OOC thread, it is likely that you are OOC anyway.

It totally was and its failure was to be expected but the fact that no-one offered an alternative was unexpected.

As for the last point, as I said I and Fusil are both perfectly clear on it. Fusil just hates the idea with the fiery passion he always has.

Alright then. I guess we can stop the OOC discussion then?

[Kilojoule Proton]

$$$Response

If I might suggest something about the titling scheme is to make the alliteration rarer. It's not really special when it's like that for EVERY update and sometimes it feels like you're forcing yourself to use words that don't accurately describe the situation JUST for the sake of alliteration. Your choice of course. It's just a suggestion. Possibly also an opinion.

$$$
Price check on passing Proposal 18.00 without the help of the other gods
Price check on passing a modified Proposal 18.00 that only applies to humans, without the help of the other gods

Yeah, I think I'll stop with the increasingly forced, silly alliterations. Most of it's not even descriptive of what actually happened, and it adds practically nothing to the game.

$$$
Depends on how far up you raise the soul spawning rate. To 100% above birthrate: 40E
Only applies to humans to 100% above: 16E

It only allows us to take 5% of the reincarnates before a penalty is applied. 5% is a very small percentage. Changing it to 100% is a big difference. Keep in mind that if the proposal passes, souls in the afterlife still won't be able to worship. Only living souls can worship.

Calling that specifically a penalty is a bit misleading. It's really more like spending more money in a month than you earn. It works until you lose too much money.
I seem not to have explained the policy sufficiently clearly, so here it is:

• Souls spawn per unit of time enough to produce a surplus of x% (where x is around 5 for most races)
• Removing souls from circulation prevents them from being reborn until released
• Removing more than x% souls per unit of time results in a net decrease in the number of souls eligible for worship
• A net decrease in the number of souls from the baseline does not affect Worship Quality at all
• An increase of more than x% souls per unit of time, however, does result in a drop in Worship Quality

However, increasing the spawn rate of souls will have the effect of devaluing Worship at least slightly. The intention here is that you actually nurture your race instead of giving them a bunch of Years of Fertility and Pleasure or something like that and help them thrive. In practice, this shows up as a penalty to Worship Quality for fast breeding, long life, a larger one for fast breeding and long life together, and having extreme abilities or having an extreme lack of them. The penalties are not so severe that you cannot produce a long-lived race with Worship competitive to that of a more average race.

Also, soul spawning depends on population growth and not the other way around under the current system. Of course, having Years of Fertility and Pleasure will likely distract worshippers from worshiping properly...

Why do I have to deal with it? Why can't I change it? There's no rule saying that seniority is law and just because a world has already been made doesn't mean it can't be changed later. This is a god game. The whole point of it is so that we do what we want and if we change our minds later then so be it.

The important word here is "we." It's hard to get things done alone by design, and when your current ideas are heavily opposed, it's intended that you attempt to convince people to support it or make compromises in exchange for support, just like in real consensus-based systems.

Stirk: This is a warning not to be in-character on the OOC thread even with quotation marks. It will be cleared next tick if nothing else happens. If you want an IC debate, please keep it in IC, and if you want an OOC debate, please keep it in OOC.

I guess you could take humans out and give them a regular afterlife thing, but the other gods probably won't help you with that. You will have to just do it yourself.

Actually that's already happening. It's just that doing so is preventing new sapients from being born. The proposal would eliminate that problem with no negative repercussions, assuming you don't subscribe to 'change is bad'.

No actually, it isn't preventing sapients from being born. I don't know why you thought that, but the population is increasing. Having an afterlife just makes it slower as long as you don't take too many souls out.

And you could increase the humans growth rate by yourself.

$$$ how much would it cost to change humanity into an afterlife from a reincarnation cycle?

This would require that the massive discount from simply recycling souls be removed and 100% of the birth rate manifesting as population. I estimate that it will take 18E for a single god even for aligned creations.