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Total Members Voted: 17

[Andres]

Would it be better if I phrased it as consuming the angel?

[Stirk]

Without powerups or final forms, archangels can only be killed by armies numbering in the thousands. Let's say 3,000 for a regular one and 7,000 for Tykki. That would mean that she could either kill off the Emperor or the army, but not both.

Oh? And what do you base that off of? It wouldn't take very long to just kill the emperor, or just kill the army. Choosing the battlefield means I can do either whenever I feel like. It isn't like all 7000 could fight at the same time. Besides, why wouldn't I just make my own army? You can make 3 million humanoids for 7~ essence. As god of weapons, I could arm them and train them with just a few points more. I could have a larger, better trained army in one tick.

Again, the army wouldn't do much anyway, unless you can get all of those 7000 guys to fight at the exact same time, mobbing the nearly invincible Angel who would be cutting them down like grain, without running or even hesitating. Even with power ups, you can't get enough mortals in a small enough space to even damage her. And even then, if it is my will, she could show up waving around a minigun while your soldiers are swinging around steel swords. You cannot be the Angel of Arms with arms, and definitely not at arms!

Plus, those wings of steel are practical, Tykki can just fly a few meters off the ground and nothing mortals at this time have could touch her. She could simply rain arrows down at the mortals below, easily dodging the few that come anywhere close to her.

Armor? Do you think mortal armor can stop the Angel of Arms? A few sheets of metal will not even slow Tykki down. She could cut a tank in half with a butter knife, if I ordered her to do so. Mortal armor, even when empowered by the gods, is nothing. It would be like trying to slow the god of Acid with baking soda. If I even thought it was a problem, I could simply send her with an armor piercing weapon. Like a war hammer twice the size of the humans it is hitting? Or an anti-tank rifle. Or a nuke. I am the god of weapons, past present and future. In reality, the other gods probably won't want me nuking the setting, but we are doing theoretical combat.

As for the humans, not all of them have to be armed. You do realize there are plenty of other races? Even as long as they know the concept of weaponry, I will gain power.

And what makes you think Tykki can't take down a simple dragon in her normal (And only) form? She can kill thousands of dragons in the form of a young women, without my help. Certainly one giant one would be no problem, especially when it is THE GOD OF HUMANS transforming his HUMAN angel into something out of his sphere. Seriously, why does the god of human's angel turn into something not at all human? If you think dragons are stronger, you could have just been the god of dragons.

In the end, I am the one and only war god in existence. The god of humans alone could not even manage to defeat my avatar, especially if I use even a little intelligence with my power. By the definition of my sphere, I have you outgunned, no matter what you bring to the table I can bring something better. I wouldn't even have to fight you, if I didn't want to. I could just slowly exterminate all of your people. Tykki can take down entire villages with no trouble. Entire towns, too. You might slower down with tens of thousands of troops at each, but if they are not all prepared at all times, you won't even do that well. Of course then I would need permission from the other gods to break the cycle of reincarnation for them, like transforming them into something else, but it wouldn't be *too* hard to wipe out all the humans in time. Weapons spring eternal, you could never do the same.

[Kilojoule Proton]

Is it possible to eat our angels?

I don't see why not. It will end up giving only some small fraction of the creation cost, though.

[Andres]

First off, good point about my dude turning into a dragon. It just seemed really cool at the time. I have a good idea of what Aminak's final form will be though so there's that. Any idea on the Emperor's final form?

My army doesn't have to be equipped with steel swords you know. They could be equipped with bows, crossbows, artillery, guns, rocket launchers, etc. That would certainly change the balance of power a little bit.

Zeus could beat Ares in a fight despite Ares being the god of war. He could do this because he was just more powerful than him. My guess is that the same applies to this world but I could be wrong.

This scenario also takes place on a grassy flatlands type of map, at least in my head. If we were fighting in a smaller scale area like a town or forest no army would be worth anything.
How about this for who can beat who in a fight?

Mortal < Angel < Archangel < Army of Mortals < Tykki <=> Archangel Final Form < Tykki Final Form? = Archangel of Armour's Final Form

Let's calculate what the GM said. An army of a few thousand mortals can beat an archangel. Since no one likes someone having a stupidly overpowered character that no one likes except the one controlling it, let's take away Tykki's 'kill everything ever because weapon angel' perk and put her in the same scenario that would let a regular archangel get killed by an army of mortals. She would kill the army but still get wounded. The same would happen if she fought an archangel but she'll be in better shape once the battle's finished. What I'm thinking is that she has to fight either 3 archangels or 2 mortal armies to lose.
Here's what I propose for Tykki fighting an archangel's final form. First off, I'll point out that the weakest archangel's (angels of peace or love or flowers I'm thinking) would have a final form that's only slightly more powerful than a regular archangel's normal form. Tykki would demolish them. She would be equal to a regular archangel's final form (angels of dogs or mountains or humans or hunting). She would lose to an archangel's final form if that archangel was equal to her in their normal form (angel of dragons (yes, I'm saying that dragons are equal to weapons, deal with it) or armour or destruction). If Tykki had a final form she would be equal to such a being and beat everything else.

Does this seem ok? In this case, I would have to field three human archangels to defeat Tykki, sacrifice somewhere between 2,000 - 9,999 humans just to wound her, and she'll be on equal grounds with any of my archangel's final forms, of which I'm sure I can only afford to give to one. If she had a final form I don't think I'll be able to stop her without sacrificing a few hundreds of thousands of humans at least, or else get help from other gods.

Having her being very powerful is fine. Having her being invincible is not.

$$$
Price check on making an Archangel-Emperor of Mankind (should be a little more powerful than a regular archangel) with the Universal attunement?
Price check on making an archangel with the Musical attunement?
Can I save Essence by making regular angels in bulk?

[Kilojoule Proton]

$$$Response
Slightly improved Angel template with Universal: High 5-6 Essence
Angel template with Musical: Low 5-6 Essence
You can make regular angels in bulk. The key here is regular angels. Conservation of Ninjutsu applies to at least some extent.

Also, at this point, I would like to politely ask Andres to stop with the munchkinry. If you are so intent on seeing combat situations, it may be advisable to switch your primary sphere over to War or Violence instead. If you want a more mechanics-heavy game, I am sure there are plenty out there. This game, however, is mostly for the plot, fluff, and RPing, and the mechanics exist only to facilitate proper play.

[Andres]

Allrighty then! That stuff was mostly just to pass the time between updates and stuff. You know, for fun. Never expected it would affect play in any way but I'll stop that stuff. I will ask for specifics on angels though because they're unique and I expect them to last for a very long time and I want to get their builds right.
Firstly, an archangel to me is basically a unique and more powerful angel. Tykki is an example of an archangel. I suppose a warrior angel or a messenger angel count as archangels. Are warrior and messenger angels basically just regular angels (same temperament and personalities) but with different powers or skills? Are they unique like Tykki or common like regular angels? Is there a difference between a warrior angel and a unique angel? Is a unique angel just a warrior or messenger angel that's slightly more powerful and is specifically detailed by its creator or are they an entirely different breed of angel?

On an unrelated note, final forms are cool.

$$$
Price check on a Warrior Angel-Emperor of Mankind (should be a little more powerful than a regular warrior angel) with the Universal attunement.
Price check on a warrior angel with the Musical attunement.
Price check on a unique angel.
Price check on a unique angel that's slightly more powerful than other unique angels with the Universal attunement.
Price check on a unique angel with the Musical attunement.
Price check for warrior/unique angel final forms without attunement.
Price check for warrior/unique angel final forms with Universal OR Musical attunement.

Sorry I'm giving you so much work. I REALLY like this game though. I'm literally giddy with anticipation for when I start playing! Most of this... 'munchkinry' you called it comes from not having much else to do yet but my time is close at hand! This is gonna be so much fun!

[Kilojoule Proton]

$$$Response

"Slightly more powerful than X" descriptors will be ignored for the purpose of price checks to prevent things like "An apple more powerful than a clock." I consider unique Angels of vastly differing spheres to be practically orthogonal to each other in domain and scope.

Are warrior and messenger angels basically just regular angels (same temperament and personalities) but with different powers or skills?

Yes, but with boosts. What you call "messenger angels" I call "angel template intradimjump" and what you call "warrior angels" I call "angel template combatboost." Their temperament and personalities are not cost-based (unless you sell sapient or something like that). A lot depends on fluff and spheres as opposed to mechanics.

Are they unique like Tykki or common like regular angels?

That depends on whether or not you want to make them unique.

Is there a difference between a warrior angel and a unique angel?

This question to me is like asking "Is there a difference between a carpet and a goblet?"

Is a unique angel just a warrior or messenger angel that's slightly more powerful and is specifically detailed by its creator or are they an entirely different breed of angel?

No. The unique descriptor gives stuff like plot armor, autorevives where appropriate, and a copyright of sorts. Ideally, you will provide extensive fluff for uniques, but this is not formally necessary.

Warrior Angel-Emperor of Mankind with the Universal attunement: High 5-6 Essence
Warrior angel with the Musical attunement: Low 5-6 Essence
Unique angel: High 4-5 Essence
Unique angel with Universal: High 4-5 Essence
Unique angel with Musical: High 4-5 Essence
Final form: +(red. cost of final form, calc. separately) + 1 step
Final form with Universal/Musical: +(red. cost of final form, calc. separately) + 1

[Ambidextrous]

$$$
Price check on attuning the entire race of the Hummingbirds of Balance with Musical.

[Varee]

$$$
I want an incarnation of myself that can
1 change it appearance at will
2 perform minor miracle
3 under my direct control
4 immortal and unique.

[Kilojoule Proton]

$$$
Price check on attuning the entire race of the Hummingbirds of Balance with Musical.

Low 1-2

$$$
I want an incarnation of myself that can
1 change it appearance at will
2 perform minor miracle
3 under my direct control
4 immortal and unique.

Will that be corporeal or spirit? (If you're just making deals with mortals, spirit will be enough and get you a discount)

[Stirk]

My army doesn't have to be equipped with steel swords you know. They could be equipped with bows, crossbows, artillery, guns, rocket launchers, etc. That would certainly change the balance of power a little bit.

I the one who decides what weapons you have, and if those weapons work. Those rocket launches don't do you much good when I can order the rockets back to you. God of Weapons, remember? It is fairly foolish to think you can beat me with any amount of Arms. Would you try to drown the Water God?

Zeus could beat Ares in a fight despite Ares being the god of war. He could do this because he was just more powerful than him. My guess is that the same applies to this world but I could be wrong.

Ares was a joke in Greek Mythology. Aside from that, Zues was king of the gods. If he was playing this game, he would probably be the DM. Comparing it to your god, who is currently much weaker, is not at all fair.

Let's calculate what the GM said. An army of a few thousand mortals can beat an archangel. Since no one likes someone having a stupidly overpowered character that no one likes except the one controlling it, let's take away Tykki's 'kill everything ever because weapon angel' perk and put her in the same scenario that would let a regular archangel get killed by an army of mortals

Why? This whole thing started because you wanted to make the God Emperor of Mankind "Stronger then Tykki", who is apparently "stupidly overpowered". Weapons are my sphere, I control weapons. I am the only god of war. Surly you can imagine said god winning a simple fight against a god of similar power? I will never have the control over the oceans as the Water god, nor the control over humans as yourself the human god, but I will always have power over the weapons of the world that you simply cannot match.

Here's what I propose for Tykki fighting an archangel's final form. First off, I'll point out that the weakest archangel's (angels of peace or love or flowers I'm thinking) would have a final form that's only slightly more powerful than a regular archangel's normal form. Tykki would demolish them. She would be equal to a regular archangel's final form (angels of dogs or mountains or humans or hunting).

Angels don't have spheres, to my knowlage. Unless you are saying they are powered by the sphere the God has, in which case why?

She would lose to an archangel's final form if that archangel was equal to her in their normal form (angel of dragons (yes, I'm saying that dragons are equal to weapons, deal with it) or armour or destruction). If Tykki had a final form she would be equal to such a being and beat everything else.

I just don't like the idea of "final form" or transformation attacks. It was your idea, and you are trying to make it "Stupidly overpowered" in a vain attempt to get me to say your angel could beat Tykki under any circumstances. Why would a final form be any more powerful then me powering up Tykki in other ways? Why would an angel have a final form at all, it doesn't seem very practical.

Does this seem ok? In this case, I would have to field three human archangels to defeat Tykki, sacrifice somewhere between 2,000 - 9,999 humans just to wound her, and she'll be on equal grounds with any of my archangel's final forms, of which I'm sure I can only afford to give to one. If she had a final form I don't think I'll be able to stop her without sacrificing a few hundreds of thousands of humans at least, or else get help from other gods.

3 million humans=7 to 8 essence Again, as I have pointed out before, these balances are off. What you are asking is for not even 1 essence worth of mortal humans to be worth the same as a the Angel of Arms, who costs the same amount as millions of humans. Why would that be acceptable? The sense of scale is way off. 10k sounds like a lot of people, doesn't it? We just made 3 million from a bunch of guys donating one or two energy. What you are asking is that my expensive, powerful angel of weapons is able to die 300 times over from what is essentially the human "starter pack". Why would I allow this? Why would anyone allow this?

(To put this in perspective, here are some maths. 3 million humans was made for seven essence. 3 million/7=428571.428571. That means, for each essence point spent, we got 428,571.428571 humans. 428571.428571/9,999 (The highest amount you suggested, by the way)=42.861429. So under your plan, 1 essence point of humans would kill Tykki 43 times over.)

Having her being very powerful is fine. Having her being invincible is not.

Actually, the first draft of Tykki had invincibility. It was too expensive so I had to drop it to just "Revives".

She isn't invincible. She is nearly invincible in combat, which I am the god of. Again, fighting her is like trying to drown the water god. Everyone else found a way to fight her using their spheres, you just want to seem to beat the god of Combat at his own game just for the sake of it.

Also, completely irreverent.

$$$ How much would it cost to visit the planet myself? To spread the glory of my name and knowlage alongside Tykki.

[Happerry]

Ares was a joke in Greek Mythology.

To be fair, the majority of the surviving legends of Ares comes (according to what I've been told last time this kind of thing came up), from Athens, the city of Athena, who didn't get along with him and so showed him as a chump.

Meanwhile, the city that was faithful to him, well, Sparta had a verbal tradition. Which means when the greek ages ended, no one was able to find recordings of their versions of the legends any more.

So most of our records of Ares come from people who didn't like him, and therefor had reason to claim he was a dolt.

[Andres]

That answers most of my questions. I think and I really hope this is the last found of questions I'll need to ask. It's a big one. My apologies for inconveniencing you so heavily.

Spoiler: Tykki Questions (click to show/hide)

A unique angel costs a maximum of 5 and a warrior angel with a +1 Step attunement is a maximum of 6. Tykki is a unique angel with something called the "Advanced Jumper" and increased combat ability. I'm guessing she would count as a unique warrior angel and that's why she costs 7 Essence, but what's the Advanced Jumper? It sounds important. Is it from that film 'Jumper'? If so then would that make her a unique messenger/warrior angel? Aren't non-unique messenger/warrior angels really expensive? Or it she just a unique messenger angel who gets her increased combat ability from being unique/angel of weapons?

Then there's this quote and then the talks that proceeded it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A sapient, jumper, invulnerable, immortal, ENHANCED, unique avatar: 25-26 (‼)
I guess you could remove unique (removing a "copyright" of some sort) to reduce the cost to 12-13. Uniqueness also grants some measure of plot armor, but I guess the Angel of Arms can make do with invulnerability and immortality.

$$$ More price checking, sorry for doing this so much.

About how much is each trait? If I removed invulnerable and most of the ENHANCED, (Making it a sapient, immortal, jumper, unique avatar), how much would it cost? And what would it be capable of?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This implies that sapience and immortality are 'optional extras' for angels. Is that true for all angels or just for non-unique angels? How long do angels and unique angels live without immortality (i.e. death from old age)? Then in the conversation apparently we can make unique angels the equivalent of warrior/messenger angels for an extra 2 Essence? If sapience is indeed an 'optional extra', then does that mean Tykki isn't sapient? I didn't see anything saying that sapience was paid for in this quote. Does this also mean she's not immortal? What does 'ENHANCED' mean? Is invulnerability really a thing you can pay for? I also see that he gets a discount for being a war god. Does the discount apply to the increased combat ability? Is the discount applied to the whole angel by removing the Essence cost of the increased combat ability?

If this is giving you a headache I'll just stop with the questions and just wing it.

$$$
Price check on angel sapience
Price check on angel invulnerability
Price check on angel immortality
Price check on angel 'jumper' ability
Price check on angel 'advanced jumper' ability. (How is this different from the 'jumper' ability?)
Price check on angel 'enhanced combat' trait
Price check on 'ENHANCED' angel trait. (What is ENHANCED anyway?)
Price check on all of the above when given to a unique angel
Price check on 'unique' angel trait
Price check for *takes deep breath* a Sentient, Immortal, Enhanced Combat, ENHANCED, Unique Angel-Emperor of Mankind with Universal attunement?
Price check for Sentient, Enhanced Combat, ENHANCED, Unique Angel with Musical attunement?

-snip-

I concede on most points.
My Zeus-Ares thing was a poorly-chosen comparison. The general question is just whether or not a less powerful/influential deity can or cannot defeat a more powerful/influential deity simply by being a war god.

The whole point about you controlling weapons brings up a good point. Currently, while my sphere is humans they could, technically, not worship me or openly revolt against me despite me being the God of Humans so I thought maybe the God of Weapons' angel could potentially be harmed by weapons. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong here but I'm not entirely certain. These are just hypotheticals and I really don't know.

The whole 'angels have spheres' thing as you call it came from the fact that Tykki's title is 'Angel of Arms'. It could simply mean that she's made of arms but it could easily be interpreted as having some small influence on the sphere. You also asked why the sphere was important. To answer this, imagine an angel with the title 'Angel of Killing' going up against an angel with the title 'Angel of Puppies'. Who do you think will win?

But yeah, you're right that I have been very biased in my calculations and such. I'll just stop with them.

I still maintain that final forms are cool. If invulnerability is an actual trait that angels can have then I don't see why they can't have a final form.

How do you feel about these discussions Stirk? I personally find them quite fun to have what with the whole exchanges of ideas and opinions. If, on the other hand, you find it irritating, I'll stop.

[Varee]

$$$
I want an incarnation of myself that can
1 change it appearance at will
2 perform minor miracle
3 under my direct control
4 immortal and unique.

Will that be corporeal or spirit? (If you're just making deals with mortals, spirit will be enough and get you a discount)

I would rather have a corporeal avartar or a spirit avartar that exist in the physical world.

[Stirk]

The whole 'angels have spheres' thing as you call it came from the fact that Tykki's title is 'Angel of Arms'. It could simply mean that she's made of arms but it could easily be interpreted as having some small influence on the sphere. You also asked why the sphere was important. To answer this, imagine an angel with the title 'Angel of Killing' going up against an angel with the title 'Angel of Puppies'. Who do you think will win?

Tykki is the Angel of Arms partially because she is made out of weapons. It is also because she is the weapon of the God of Weapons. And because of alliteration. It is simply an awesome name like "Angel-Emperor of Mankind". Tykki is attuned with weapons, as her powers are enhanced in creation, and is created by the weapon god giving her skill with weapons. I think. I have a really bad memory.

To your second point, doesn't that mean if the "Angel of Weapons" and the "Angel of Man" fought, the weapon angel would win?

But yeah, you're right that I have been very biased in my calculations and such. I'll just stop with them.

Yay! I win! Just how all internet debates go! 

I still maintain that final forms are cool. If invulnerability is an actual trait that angels can have then I don't see why they can't have a final form.

I never said they couldn't. I said it was weird the way you put it. As long as it acts as any other power up, not the uber powered one you want.

How do you feel about these discussions Stirk? I personally find them quite fun to have what with the whole exchanges of ideas and opinions. If, on the other hand, you find it irritating, I'll stop.

If I didn't find them interesting, I would probably stop responding to them and do something else with my time.