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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[smeeprocket]

I could get behind polytheism because at least the Gods aren't all powerful. They are more mortal, and them having flaws is accepted.

I have the Monkey King tattooed on my back (it's a Buddhist based children's fable character) years ago I was at a record store and this guy behind me just randomly says "At least I don't worship animals." I was ready to rip into him but my friend was like "Don't." and I wasn't sure if he was going to cause problems if I did so I held my tongue.

Man I should have said something though.

I don't know why I mentioned that. But I find religions like Buddhism, which by itself doesn't have any actual deities, though some sects have added them, to be more useful and less prone to violence or oppression. It's more about the internal, and there is also Buddhist philosophy where you just extract the questionable stuff entirely and just focus on spiritual self-improvement.

Monotheistic religions seem to be more prone to violence and dangerous thinking.

[smjjames]

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport." -Gloucester in Shakespeare's King Lear.

The gods be fickle, just look at Zeus, or Hera, or, oh I dunno, any myth.

I believe I've said it before
No insulting someone's god!
And don't go off saying that calling him them all fickle is not an insult
And adding that second part wasn't necessary

I wasn't insulting anybody, they really ARE fickle.

[smeeprocket]

"As flies to wanton boys are we to the Gods. They kill us for their sport." -Gloucester in Shakespeare's King Lear.

The gods be fickle, just look at Zeus, or Hera, or, oh I dunno, any myth.

I believe I've said it before
No insulting someone's god!
And don't go off saying that calling him them all fickle is not an insult
And adding that second part wasn't necessary

I wasn't insulting anybody, they really ARE fickle.

yea that wasn't an insult, it is an oft-stated "reality" (assuming you believe any Gods exist at all)

[Arx]

An being beholden to god and his standards.

So you are up against a value set that you fail by virtue of being human. Your only option is to beg forgiveness from a god who set this unrealistic expectation in place, and then gratefully thank him for having mercy on you.

But then again, he is omniscient and omnipotent, so he knew the way in which you were going to sin each time and your every response to every stimulus laid before you, so you aren't really the one sinning. He has guided you perfectly into sin. So that you will ask for his forgiveness yada yada yada.

I'm not certain which denomination you were of (Catholicism, I think?), but auto-failure isn't actually a thing as far as I can tell. It is possible for a human to become perfect, which makes the difference between an incredibly disappointing and meaningless existance and an existance of self-improvement by trying to meet a very high standard.

And I'm still extremely dubious on the concept of hell as eternal torment. It's mentioned once, regarding a man who pretty clearly gave zero dams for those less wealthy than himself.

Monotheistic religions seem to be more prone to violence and dangerous thinking.

I can think of three major monotheistic religions off-hand. Two of them explicitly forbid violence, and I'm not sure what you mean by dangerous thinking? Because a while back you were arguing that religion stifles thought, which rules out dangerous thinking as thoughts that threaten the established framework.

[smeeprocket]

An being beholden to god and his standards.

So you are up against a value set that you fail by virtue of being human. Your only option is to beg forgiveness from a god who set this unrealistic expectation in place, and then gratefully thank him for having mercy on you.

But then again, he is omniscient and omnipotent, so he knew the way in which you were going to sin each time and your every response to every stimulus laid before you, so you aren't really the one sinning. He has guided you perfectly into sin. So that you will ask for his forgiveness yada yada yada.

I'm not certain which denomination you were of (Catholicism, I think?), but auto-failure isn't actually a thing as far as I can tell. It is possible for a human to become perfect, which makes the difference between an incredibly disappointing and meaningless existance and an existance of self-improvement by trying to meet a very high standard.

And I'm still extremely dubious on the concept of hell as eternal torment. It's mentioned once, regarding a man who pretty clearly gave zero dams for those less wealthy than himself.

Monotheistic religions seem to be more prone to violence and dangerous thinking.

I can think of three major monotheistic religions off-hand. Two of them explicitly forbid violence, and I'm not sure what you mean by dangerous thinking? Because a while back you were arguing that religion stifles thought, which rules out dangerous thinking as thoughts that threaten the established framework.

critical thinking versus controlled thinking.

I was quaker as my last denomination, but I went through a few, Lutheran was the first. I have never heard of humans being capable of perfection, the bible specifically says we are born of sin.

I can't think of a monotheistic faith that forbids violence. Christianity sure doesn't. And it definitely doesn't play out like that in real life.

I know the story in the bible you are talking about, it's actually my favorite and affected me deeply as a child.

But hell is also mentioned in other places iirc. Eternal lake of fire... something something. It's very literal about it just being fire forever.

Let me find more instances of eternal torment being mentioned.

Edit: okay so I didn't find it specifically saying eternal but holy shit that's a lot of "homosexuals will burn" references. I mean, that's kind of a turn off right there and I'm not sure how anyone who is just and moral could follow something like this.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/damnation

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Well for starters it's just about anyone who doesn't accept for will burn
Secondly anybody who accepts god is saved from all of that sooo it's not like god isn't going out of his way to give them a way of not having to go through it

[Descan]

But, again, there's the two major problems with that. A) No proof, and B) Lots of different religions.

Couple them together, and there's no way to know which one will save your sorry ass.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

But since this thread is for discussing Christianity other religions are a bit exempt here for being discussed on major Christian beliefs and ya there's no proof that's why they call it faith

[smeeprocket]

Well for starters it's just about anyone who doesn't accept for will burn
Secondly anybody who accepts god is saved from all of that sooo it's not like god isn't going out of his way to give them a way of not having to go through it

So what you are saying is, homosexuality is in fact wrong because God say it is, but that's okay because those unclean souls will be forgiven thanks to Jesus.

That just sounds like you are doubling down on the biblical stance.

Also the bible says that everyone has the chance to know god so even if you are a child in North Korea and die without being proselytized to you get to burn. You had your chance. So he kind of is going out of his way to send people to hell.

So the question is, do you agree with your Lord? Are homosexuals disgusting deviants that, without being saved by Jesus Christ should burn in hell fire for eternity?

edit: no the whole which religion is actually right argument is perfectly valid here and falling back on "you just gotta have faith" isn't a productive or reasonable position to take. It's just a way out of having to think about it.

edit edit: I'm looking for passages to reference on the everyone has a chance to know god thing and I found some texts on it, but they are so distorted by conjecture and the writer's interpretation that I don't think they are worth anyone's time.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Obviously you havnt read half my posts in this thread
But I will give the same answer I have been giving


Yes they are, so are thieves, murderers, adulterers, etc etc which everyone is guilty of at least one sin (spare like one or two people in the bible IIRC) so I'm not just going out and saying homosexuals are the worst or they are the only ones who should burn

We all should
I should burn in hell
We all sin and the only proper punishment is burning in hell for eternity.
But as I have said before god sent his son to die one of the worst deaths someone can, just to save us from our sins

[smeeprocket]

You are ignoring the question. Is homosexuality a sin? Because the bible says it is a horrific sin. Is it immoral as the bible says, or no?

I don't care if other people also do other things to sin, that is irrelevant.

edit: also, though crucifixion would suck, it's not the worst imaginable death. God is well practiced in killing in imaginative ways, if he wanted the worst death, he could have gotten way more brutal.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

You are ignoring the question. Is homosexuality a sin? Because the bible says it is a horrific sin. Is it immoral as the bible says, or no?

I don't care if other people also do other things to sin, that is irrelevant.

Did you not read my post?

I said yes they are

But so is everyone else

And if you look back at my other posts you will see at least 20+ pages of me argueing it
Yes having homosexual sex is a sin, thoughts of homosexuality are also bad
Just as cold bloodidly murdering someone is just as bad as the thought of doing it
But you can't avoid the thoughts sometimes but you can the actions

[Bohandas]

An being beholden to god and his standards.

So you are up against a value set that you fail by virtue of being human. Your only option is to beg forgiveness from a god who set this unrealistic expectation in place, and then gratefully thank him for having mercy on you.

But then again, he is omniscient and omnipotent, so he knew the way in which you were going to sin each time and your every response to every stimulus laid before you, so you aren't really the one sinning. He has guided you perfectly into sin. So that you will ask for his forgiveness yada yada yada.

I'm not certain which denomination you were of (Catholicism, I think?), but auto-failure isn't actually a thing as far as I can tell. It is possible for a human to become perfect, which makes the difference between an incredibly disappointing and meaningless existance and an existance of self-improvement by trying to meet a very high standard.

And I'm still extremely dubious on the concept of hell as eternal torment. It's mentioned once, regarding a man who pretty clearly gave zero dams for those less wealthy than himself.

Monotheistic religions seem to be more prone to violence and dangerous thinking.

I can think of three major monotheistic religions off-hand. Two of them explicitly forbid violence, and I'm not sure what you mean by dangerous thinking? Because a while back you were arguing that religion stifles thought, which rules out dangerous thinking as thoughts that threaten the established framework.

critical thinking versus controlled thinking.

I was quaker as my last denomination, but I went through a few, Lutheran was the first. I have never heard of humans being capable of perfection, the bible specifically says we are born of sin.

I can't think of a monotheistic faith that forbids violence. Christianity sure doesn't. And it definitely doesn't play out like that in real life.

I know the story in the bible you are talking about, it's actually my favorite and affected me deeply as a child.

But hell is also mentioned in other places iirc. Eternal lake of fire... something something. It's very literal about it just being fire forever.

Let me find more instances of eternal torment being mentioned.

Edit: okay so I didn't find it specifically saying eternal...

"And if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out. It is better to enter 9nto the kingdom of god with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into gehenna; where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched" -Mark 9:47-48

EDIT:
also Revelation 20:10-15, sort of. (Revelation 20:10 explicitly states that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, and Revelations 20:14-15 states that the wicked will also be thrown into the lake of fire albeit without explicitly mentioning eternity)


EDIT:
also,
"“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" - Matthew 25:41

[smeeprocket]

You keep adding the so is everything else thing to distract from the reality of what you said, but you've lost me anyway.

You have replaced basic, essential morality with dogma. That is the dangerous thinking I am talking about.

When dogma overrides more logical and sane answers to basic questions of morality, things get ugly fast. That's how people die, that's what has led to slaughter in the name of Christ.

If homosexuality is wrong, why are animals often bisexual and sometimes homosexual? I didn't know animals could sin.

[Arx]

I can't think of a monotheistic faith that forbids violence. Christianity sure doesn't. And it definitely doesn't play out like that in real life.

Matthew 5:39 "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."
Luke 6:29 "If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them."

Matthew 22:39-34 "And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Justifying violence becomes very difficult stacked up against those two quotes. No self defence, and initiating an attack is not loving your neighbour.

Edit: okay so I didn't find it specifically saying eternal but holy shit that's a lot of "homosexuals will burn" references. I mean, that's kind of a turn off right there and I'm not sure how anyone who is just and moral could follow something like this.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/damnation

There are two references to hell in that list. One supports the annihilation theory, i.e. not eternal damnation, and one is a very vague threat that if you sin you will probably be punished.

Edit: okay so I didn't find it specifically saying eternal but holy shit that's a lot of "homosexuals will burn" references. I mean, that's kind of a turn off right there and I'm not sure how anyone who is just and moral could follow something like this.

You are ignoring the question. Is homosexuality a sin? Because the bible says it is a horrific sin. Is it immoral as the bible says, or no?

I believe that homosexual sex is a sin, yes. Depending on how the semantics work out, that may or may not include lesbianism. However, if anyone says that you will go to hell for 'homosexual acts' (looking at Paul here) they are contradicted by statements such as
"whosoever believes in me shall not perish" (John 3:16) and
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9 oh hey there Paul).

It's better to strive to be celibate. It's not evil if you aren't.

"Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:3-4)

Yes having homosexual sex is a sin, thoughts of homosexuality are also bad 

I actually follow "Deed>Intent>Thought". If you intend to do something, it is equivalent to doing something; if it briefly crosses your mind that you could do something, it's not the same as doing it.

If homosexuality is wrong, why are animals often bisexual and sometimes homosexual? I didn't know animals could sin.

If killing is wrong, why do animals kill each other? This also gets into the while ordeal of "do animals have souls" because something without a soul is fundamentally incapable of sinning, as sin is something that weighs against you in judgment, and a soulless being will not be judged.

Edit: that footnote's not really useful if it doesn't link anywhere, oops.