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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

But no need in making a sex joke out of it, keep the filthy comedy out of it and discuss it like a mature adult or get out of my thread

[wierd]

I have no objection to that, other than the usual one about confirmation biases, especially personal ones.  What one person finds objectionable, another may not.

I simply made light of the fact that religiously themed self-inflicted injury has frequently joined hands with religious ecstasy.  This may at first appear to be shameless perversion, but really was not meant to be; rather, it implied that the readers here would already be somewhat familiar with this connection, and understand that the same mechanics that enable BDS&M to be a sexual fetish is what also enables it to be a powerful religious experience, (and that yes, roman catholicism has had this connection made historically)


It was a light-hearted/jovial way of suggesting that the reader should consider intellectual research into how that particular kink works, and then abstractly apply it to the "Religion is about punishment, not pleasure" rhetoric.

The altered mental states caused by increased endorphin levels produced by experiencing pain is the common pathway being employed.

"Orgasmic bliss" from administering brutal self-punishment as a means of feeling closer to 'god' features in many religious faiths, not just some fringe practices by historical sects of roman catholicism.

Interjecting a bias that "Talking about that kind of thing is dirty, dont do it in my thread" hurts the discussion more than it helps it, IMO, unless you believe that the participants are incapable of intellectual rigor.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I didn't say you couldn't talk about it
I was just saying the way you were going about it was just a bit on the line of perverted joking
But I see your point

On the subject my (sect?) of Christianity does not believe in whiping yourself for god or for spiritual/sexual pleasure

[wierd]

I don't discount that (Christianity, as a religion, encompases many different modes of practice. Many forms of the protestant mode of application follow a code of conduct that strictly denies the physical body, and would never consider using physical punishments as a means of getting closer to god.); I just felt it important to point out that the line has already been crossed historically, and that self-flagellation is still actively performed, though not to such extremes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-flagellation

From the wikipedia article:

Some members of strict monastic orders, and some members of the Catholic lay organization Opus Dei, practice mild self-flagellation using an instrument called a "discipline", a cattail whip usually made of knotted cords, which is flung over the shoulders repeatedly during private prayer.[1] Pope John Paul II took the discipline regularly.[2]

While not taken to "extreme" measures, the basic biochemical pathway remains; Increased endorphin levels cause altered states of mind, which alter the religious experience, and may well result in feelings of bliss or closeness with their deity.


My sense of humor often gets me into trouble, but it is VERY rare for me to make a blatant sex-joke without there being something far more substantial buried underneath.

[penguinofhonor]

I have no objection to that, other than the usual one about confirmation biases, especially personal ones.  What one person finds objectionable, another may not.

I simply made light of the fact that religiously themed self-inflicted injury has frequently joined hands with religious ecstasy.  This may at first appear to be shameless perversion, but really was not meant to be; rather, it implied that the readers here would already be somewhat familiar with this connection, and understand that the same mechanics that enable BDS&M to be a sexual fetish is what also enables it to be a powerful religious experience, (and that yes, roman catholicism has had this connection made historically)

It was a light-hearted/jovial way of suggesting that the reader should consider intellectual research into how that particular kink works, and then abstractly apply it to the "Religion is about punishment, not pleasure" rhetoric.

The altered mental states caused by increased endorphin levels produced by experiencing pain is the common pathway being employed.

Just... wow. The lengths people will go through to justify a dumb thing they said on the internet.

[wierd]

I considered it more of an "In-joke", but again-- confirmation biases.  You are welcome to your as well, just don't let it remove your objectivity. If it makes you feel better to believe that I did not come with a comprehensive arsenal of intellectual information concerning the topic before playfully presenting it, that is entirely your prerogative. It does not make that opinion true however. 

(In general, I do not find any kind of sexual kink innately distasteful, being asexual. I find the hangups that most people have about sex to be mildly amusing in fact. I do not believe that it occurred to the topic starter that BDS&M is "Perfectly normal", when viewed and discussed by people who engage in it. The preconception that it is "Strange", or "Dirty" is a bias that clouds objectivity. In my view, it is no more dirty than homosexuality, or bisexuality, or other forms of fetishism-- or even heterosexuality. People have sexual needs, and the satisfaction of those needs is normal and natural. --The consequence of holding this view is that I "Pick on" all forms of sexuality with a light humorous slant, which often is taken as offensive-- however, such "Picking" often has some form of "Between the lines" content that is applicable to the conversation at hand.  In this case, I was already well aware of this connection, and of such interesting practices, having long ago embarked on a personal binge on human behavior related to religious and or magical practices. Rather than limit my scope, I explored as many avenues and twisty roads as I could, and found it rewarding.)

[Bohandas]

I have no objection to that, other than the usual one about confirmation biases, especially personal ones.  What one person finds objectionable, another may not.

I simply made light of the fact that religiously themed self-inflicted injury has frequently joined hands with religious ecstasy.  This may at first appear to be shameless perversion, but really was not meant to be; rather, it implied that the readers here would already be somewhat familiar with this connection, and understand that the same mechanics that enable BDS&M to be a sexual fetish is what also enables it to be a powerful religious experience, (and that yes, roman catholicism has had this connection made historically)

It was a light-hearted/jovial way of suggesting that the reader should consider intellectual research into how that particular kink works, and then abstractly apply it to the "Religion is about punishment, not pleasure" rhetoric.

The altered mental states caused by increased endorphin levels produced by experiencing pain is the common pathway being employed.

Just... wow. The lengths people will go through to justify a dumb thing they said on the internet.

No, I think that I've heard that, or at least something similar about people who cut themselves.

[wierd]

Indeed.  You will find it in some Hindi practices, and many other ritual devotionals found in asia, as well as historically in greek and roman literature for religious rites.

Spoiler:  This videos are graphic, and may be disturbing. (click to show/hide)

There is a hindu festival that prominently features piercings, and body mutilation.

In this clip, celebrants dance and frolic while recieving or self-administering various forms of piercings without any form of anesthetic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-jmhd0wKe4


In this clip, a celebrant hacks his own shoulder quite intensely with a large cleaver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OAl_Gd-_Tk

Piercing festivals are not limited to india, and also occur in thailand:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OakaCam9NoA

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I've seen those festivals on tv before
Makes me cringe watching it
But eh, to each their own

[Bohandas]

The real issue is that if you derive any sort of physical pleasure from a religious act than ypu're not doing it right. The bible is rather clear in this regard.

For the flesh craves anything that opposes The Spirit and The Spirit craves whatever opposes the flesh, and they both are contrary one to another, lest you would be doing whatever you want. -Galatians 5:17

"To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." -Romans 8:6

   
"Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." -Galatians 6:8

"Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." -Romans 8:8

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

Actually you can get pleasure from doing religious things, I'm too tired to look but I think you should (and I do) feel pleasure (not sexual, if it's sexual pleasure in doing something I'm about to list then you are definatly doing it wrong) when I volunteer for community service, or help around the church, or help others with their homework.
I could make the list longer but what I'm trying to say is when you're being a nice helpful holly person you feel a different sense of pleasure, a fulfilling one (at least I do) compared to the temporary and sometimes self destructive pleasures of the flesh like drugs for example

[wierd]

This is where things get tricky.

As I stated earlier when cryxis pointed out that his particular sect of christianity did not perform physical acts of self-injury as part of a religious devotion, many forms of protestant practice outright reject the physical body-- precisely because of statements like that one in Gallatians. (However, such rejection takes on a more abstract form, in that the rejection is not taken so... Litterally... The feelings of the body are of the body, so punishing the body does not actually reject it. Refusing to act on the impulses or sensations of the body, such as abstaining from lusts, or from over eating, etc.. is more in line with the practice done by protestants.)

Ironically, the self-flagellation performed by the flagellants in the 13th and 14th centuries derives from the same source.  It has its roots in the literal application of the metaphysical pronouncement to "Die to the flesh".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

In this case, they are "rejecting" the flesh, physically, by performing devotional self-inflicted injury. This process causes endorphins to be released into the brain-- It is a natural part of feeling pain. The flagellants did not KNOW this, however. They instead noticed euphoria associated with their recitation of their prayers and devotions while simultaneously denying their flesh, which brought about a very profound "Spiritual" experience.

In their minds, they very really were being brought closer to their god by this act, and they considered it very much a spiritual thing.

This does not change the fact that experiencing pain releases endorphins, and that one can become addicted to these endorphins, or that these endorphins can greatly increase feelings of euphoria, which is exactly why BDS&M is able to function as a sexual fetish.

It is further colored by sex itself having frequently been employed in religious rights of non-christian origin, such as the notorious vestal virgins of greece and rome, and also described in ancient mesopotamian texts. (One such sexual priestess is mentioned prominently in the epic of gilgamesh, for instance.) 

Christianity rejects such practices as base and abhorrent, but the practitioners of those religions believed that such sexual acts were very much sacred and spiritual in nature. 

The pace de resistance on top of the thing which really sets the "Funny" (as regards to BDS&M), is the costume worn by the 13th and 14th century flagellant:


(And now that I have thoroughly ruined the joke by completely explaining it, and removing all joy from other readers by preventing them from finding it themselves after digging)

The flagellants of the 13th and 14th century were human beings, just like everyone else. Much like the recent scandals that have rocked our own century with pedophile priests in the clergy, there were "deviants" back then as well, and the flagellants were no exception. I do not doubt that some of them reached levels of ecstacy suficient to well--- you know.

[wierd]

Actually you can get pleasure from doing religious things, I'm too tired to look but I think you should (and I do) feel pleasure (not sexual, if it's sexual pleasure in doing something I'm about to list then you are definatly doing it wrong) when I volunteer for community service, or help around the church, or help others with their homework.
I could make the list longer but what I'm trying to say is when you're being a nice helpful holly person you feel a different sense of pleasure, a fulfilling one (at least I do) compared to the temporary and sometimes self destructive pleasures of the flesh like drugs for example

This is more in line with more... shall we say.. mainstream?,, catholicism, and modern protestantism.  Many FMRI scans of religious devotees engaging in a devotional practice (Of decidedly non corporeally focused natures, such as simple prayer) show elevated activation in many areas of the brain, including the areas associated with reward.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007272

It is not my intention to in any way suggest that the experiences encountered by religious individuals are in any way less sacred. Rather, that there are observable mechanisms that activate during religious devotion.

[penguinofhonor]

No, I think that I've heard that, or at least something similar about people who cut themselves.

I'm not saying he's wrong. I'm saying he made an obvious dirty joke, Cryxis called him on it, and now he's thrown out paragraphs of BDSM word vomit with some big thesaurus terms thrown in occasionally so he can deny he was joking.

[smeeprocket]

I have no objection to that, other than the usual one about confirmation biases, especially personal ones.  What one person finds objectionable, another may not.

I simply made light of the fact that religiously themed self-inflicted injury has frequently joined hands with religious ecstasy.  This may at first appear to be shameless perversion, but really was not meant to be; rather, it implied that the readers here would already be somewhat familiar with this connection, and understand that the same mechanics that enable BDS&M to be a sexual fetish is what also enables it to be a powerful religious experience, (and that yes, roman catholicism has had this connection made historically)

It was a light-hearted/jovial way of suggesting that the reader should consider intellectual research into how that particular kink works, and then abstractly apply it to the "Religion is about punishment, not pleasure" rhetoric.

The altered mental states caused by increased endorphin levels produced by experiencing pain is the common pathway being employed.

Just... wow. The lengths people will go through to justify a dumb thing they said on the internet.

No, I think that I've heard that, or at least something similar about people who cut themselves.

I'm both a former cutter and someone who engaged in body modification for the spiritual experience and they are not the same.

One is a compulsion similar to an addiction, and is just externalizing internal pain. You get adrenaline from it, but it's not spiritual.

On the other hand, I helped set up a body modification suspension thingy and one of the guys that got suspended, it was his first time. And when it happened it was like this wave of positive energy washed over everyone. A very spiritual effect. But that is also not the same as a BDSM experience, which is for sexual pleasure.

I'm aware that my brain was what caused the spiritual experience, not anything more than that, but it felt very real and had a positive effect on me. And no, I'm not endorsing religion.

edit: also, wtf, comparing self-harm or religiously motivated pain to pedophilia? Not everything you don't understand is sexually deviant or abhorrent. Big difference between harming yourself and raping a child.