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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Neonivek]

Looks, tastes, is composed of the same molecular structure as, and smells like X? And the only thing that makes it Y is because it so happens to be in one place, namely a church? And every other instance it is X?

Metaphysics

[Orange Wizard]

But isn't it "Drink this in remembrance of me" (Or so my minister said each time he gave the wine out) rather than "Drink this because it is me?"

He referred to the bread and wine as his body and blood, but it's very heavy on the symbolism. I'd be very surprised if it was literally his blood.
It would also mean that Jesus has a lot of blood.

[TD1]

Heh, if I say that when milk is in my house, it is actually liquid gold, that doesn't make it automatically incapable of being "demonstrably proven true or false." It is, in fact, demonstrably false by taking a quick look at the milk, and if you have particular issue, conducting some tests on it.
Ninja Wizard

[MonkeyHead]

Catholics believe LITERALLY the bread/wine turns into the body and blood of Christ (or even could be understood to be literally the body and blood of Jesus by declaring them so), in blatant contradiction to what could be observed with an endoscope, or by examination of the wine and bread showing it to be identical in every way to boring non-holy bread and wine. Seriously - the reality of the bread and blood becomes Jesus, while not being detectable. Now, I don't know about you, but I have a hard time seeing the difference between an "undetectable change" and no change taking place. This is where faith, as in belief despite the lack of evidence comes in, I suppose... and also one of the reasons why there are so many sects in Christianity. Some consider the bread and wine a metaphor, right? Some consider it to be normal bread and wine that is also part of Jesus. Lots of complex handwavium going on in this area of theology.

[Neonivek]

Lots of complex handwavium going on in this area of theology

I dunno... matter has weight unless it doesn't. That energy has mass, except when it doesn't... And that the speed of light is a constant, except when it isn't. Matter cannot be created or destroyed except when it is.

Lots of handwavium here.

There is enough science to justify it without even getting into religion anyhow which is the interesting part. Less then is needed for a typical episode of Startrek.

[Orange Wizard]

Most people believe that the bread and wine is symbolic. The official teaching of my church is that there's a spiritual element to the ceremony, but not the food. Basically, "Eating the bread and wine of the Lord's supper brings you closer to God - but not because you're eating him."

I don't see any reason why someone couldn't argue that the bread and wine becomes flesh and blood, it just defies physics (like a lot of other religious stuff) and is mildly nauseating.

[Neonivek]

it just defies physics

Actually that is the neat thing, it doesn't!

The idea of pseudo matter is a thing that exists.

MIND YOU it does leave the odd aspect of "How is it the body and blood of a person who is kind of dead... Wouldn't this just be body and blood in the general makeup of the person?"

[MonkeyHead]

Lots of complex handwavium going on in this area of theology

I dunno... matter has weight unless it doesn't. That energy has mass, except when it doesn't... And that the speed of light is a constant, except when it isn't. Matter cannot be created or destroyed except when it is.

Lots of handwavium here.

There is enough science to justify it without even getting into religion anyhow which is the interesting part. Less then is needed for a typical episode of Startrek.

Not at all. Those principles can be observed experimentally. So, no handwavium at all. It is also a total false equivalence, and also misrepresents lots of principles with glib oversimplifications. In any case, criticising science is not a defence of theology that from the outside, looks very, very strange. This thread is to discuss these things after all, and not here to serve as a flamewar about science and religion.

[Neonivek]

What criticism of science here?

More then enough science to allow for this thing to happen in a literal fashion (ignoring... the whole "It is REALLY the person's body and blood and not just flesh and blood of their DNA?").

So don't say it breaks the laws of physics when the laws of physics has been getting rather loopy lately.

[TD1]

What criticism of science here?

ignoring... the whole "It is REALLY the person's body and blood and not just flesh and blood of their DNA?"

If you're not arguing this, then what are you arguing? This ain't no metaphysics thread

[Neonivek]

What criticism of science here?

ignoring... the whole "It is REALLY the person's body and blood and not just flesh and blood of their DNA?"

If you're not arguing this, then what are you arguing? This ain't not metaphysics thread

I dunno I just kind of find it funny that there is a handwavium argument here. Just no imagination here.

A real scientist would have already come up with a method to make it happen.

[Orange Wizard]

Wine doesn't usually spontaneously transform into blood just because someone was talking over it. That seems physics-defying to me.

[Neonivek]

Wine doesn't usually spontaneously transform into blood just because someone was talking over it. That seems physics-defying to me.

That is just what you see with your eyes. What goes on inside the box?

Mind you don't get me wrong... I don't think that happens either physically.

[Il Palazzo]

I dunno... matter has weight unless it doesn't. That energy has mass, except when it doesn't... And that the speed of light is a constant, except when it isn't. Matter cannot be created or destroyed except when it is.

Those are not statements due to handwavium but due to limited understanding of the physics involved. As you dig deeper into the actual science, rather than the bite-sized chunks served in school, the apparent contradictions disappear. Which is, like, the opposite of my experience with religion.

[Orange Wizard]

Wine doesn't usually spontaneously transform into blood just because someone was talking over it. That seems physics-defying to me.

That is just what you see with your eyes. What goes on inside the box?

Mind you don't get me wrong... I don't think that happens either physically.

The chemical change necessary for wine to change into blood would be pretty sodding noticeable. Of course, if you want to argue that it's not a chemical change, and that the wine is still wine except it's blood because metamatter quantum physics unobservable something something, then it's totally irrelevant whether or not the wine is blood, because there's no observable difference. Unfalsifiable claim, and all that.