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Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

I'm not entirely sure on economics for my church, though the congregation kinda had a meetin on it that I missed

All church members kinda vote on spending and the church workers pay etc etc
(Yes that includes the pastor)

[Frumple]

I do agree with the religious places of worship should get tax exemption rules... mostly because they are a free public service most of the time.

... no? They're not? There's no "public service" involved with most ministry, neo. Some of them do provide charity services for the public -- and to the extent they actually provide tangible charity (food, shelter, medicine, and so forth), should indeed be tax exempt -- but the majority of church activities are considerably closer in nature to, say, entertainment or political activism than what is traditionally recognized as public service. The "spiritual" aspects of ministry are very strongly a self-interested thing for religious organizations, regardless of how it's dressed up.

If the states gave churches the same tax and funding consideration as, say, volunteer theater troops or buskers, I'd be considerably less troubled by how they're treated. But they don't.

[Neonivek]

Except you know...

Radios earn money off advertisement, Television does too, a bar sells drinks...

Outside Scientology (which... has... questionable practices) what does a Religious place Sell? They don't sell communion wafers for money anymore.

[Frumple]

It's called donations, neo. There's differing levels of non-profits, in regards to taxation in the US.

But nah, beyond that churches "sell" (what amounts to) entertainment and social venues and such, and they're in roughly the same position as stuff like PACs, in regards to spreading messages and junk. Plenty make some portion of bank off running marriage ceremonies and renting facilities and education and whatnot, too.

It's not like they would suddenly stop being able to function if the gov't stopped feeding them cash (beyond what is fair given genuine charity service, anyway). They might be able to afford less fuckoff huge buildings and grotesquely expensive TV shows and such, but... I'm not calling that a loss.

[Neonivek]

It's not like they would suddenly stop being able to function if the gov't stopped feeding them cash

Times like this I wish I knew either way. I was always curious as to where the money goes in the donation plate.

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

in my church the members count the money collected and we vote on what to spend it on.
We also vote on church workers salaries, projects, public stuffs, church camp funds, etc etc
its great to know where the money is going 

[Arx]

Re: finance, I know that the Methodist Church of Southern Africa (MCSA) runs in a communist sort of way. As I understand it, all the properties- church buildings, mostly- are owned by MCSA, and all the ministers (priests, effecctively) are paid by MCSA. In turn, every church pays an 'assessment' of ~R13500 (~$1300) to MCSA every month, raised by collections, tithes, donations, fundraisers, etc. Everything above that is donated to charity or used for the improvement of the church- facilities, training courses, and so on.

fuckoff huge buildings and grotesquely expensive TV shows

This just adds to my impression that you've only ever noticed the huge, scummier churches. For every one like that, there are hundreds like the last few I've been at: main church building, *maybe* a separate hall, some kind of basic sound system, and very little else.

I apologise for any typos, etc. Using my handheld breadwarmer on a bus.

[freeformschooler]

*Sweet christ but the majority of southern protestant gospel is just freaking terrible -- sounds bad, poor singers, poor instrumentals, and shitty messages from the lyrics, too. Only genre I've of music I've seen that's as consistently low quality as most mainstream rap or country. Even the choice of hymnals in the churches I've been in are just painful. Couple hundred people singing in concert should not make you want to fall asleep or run away to escape the racket.

It's not like the genre can't produce decent stuff, even. I'm quite fond of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, just as an example. One of the most cheery songs of about freaking dying I've ever heard.

Well, do remember that Helgoland goes to an orthodox (?) catholic church, and no matter what else you want to say about it, them catholic churches do tend to have wonderful music (smells and bells, folks), so he's got a much different perspective than you. In Philomena, she even said that, as a young'un, singing with the church choir was a wonderful reprieve from the other nasty stuff the nuns put her through. I will refrain from commenting on protestant mini-choirs.

[Frumple]

This just adds to my impression that you've only ever noticed the huge, scummier churches. For every one like that, there are hundreds like the last few I've been at: main church building, *maybe* a separate hall, some kind of basic sound system, and very little else.

Yeaaaah... I'll just note that about the only thing bigger than the churches in my area are, maybe, the schools. There's something like two or three "small" churches (which are still, y'know, roughly as large as the local city hall*), but every single one of the other (upwards a dozen or so) churches are friggin' gigantic compared to the majority of other buildings in the area. And almost every single one I've actually been inside is among the best maintained buildings in the area. Usually better kept and equipped than the goddamn schools. You go into the larger areas nearby and half the bloody things are practically friggin' complexes.

I've never actually been in one of the genuinely scum-bastard churches -- all my on the ground experience has been in what amounts to "small" rural ones. Seen the inside of the bigger ones in passing on TV, but that's about it.

*Which, being fair, isn't the biggest thing in the world. It's a small, rural, town. Two caution lights sort of place.

[penguinofhonor]

Small churches have their fair share of scummy things. Any church is basically an embezzler's wet dream because there are fewer regulations on them than other nonprofits, so church fraud is apparently pretty common and gets reported very rarely. An estimated 6% of all money donated to churches is lost this way.

Congregations are actually really bad at managing finances if something like fraud comes up. Many people will defend their pastor no matter what he does.

Well, do remember that Helgoland goes to an orthodox (?) catholic church, and no matter what else you want to say about it, them catholic churches do tend to have wonderful music (smells and bells, folks), so he's got a much different perspective than you. In Philomena, she even said that, as a young'un, singing with the church choir was a wonderful reprieve from the other nasty stuff the nuns put her through. I will refrain from commenting on protestant mini-choirs.

Eugh, Catholic music is the worst kind of church music. Every song sounds like a funeral dirge. I've only been to a few protestant services, but the music was way more enjoyable every time. And I can't stand whatever incense Catholic priests use.

[Uristides]

Catholic music here is pretty... Church-ey? Your usual uplifiting guitar + drums + keyboards 4 chords verse verse chorus songs. Very few of them made an impression on me. Seems to be that way in most churches(even protestant) except for the biggest cathedrals, where they might have an organ, a choir and all that cool stuff.
If american church music is anything like in Hollywood movies, then it's way better than here.

[XXSockXX]

Eugh, Catholic music is the worst kind of church music. Every song sounds like a funeral dirge. I've only been to a few protestant services, but the music was way more enjoyable every time. And I can't stand whatever incense Catholic priests use.

As someone who has nothing good to say about church or religion in general, I oddly like traditional catholic church music. Maybe because it sounds like a funeral dirge. Or because I like old stuff. The catholic church hasn't much going for them, but they have awesome music (and architecture).

The worst kind of church music, more often found in protestant churches is more like this:

Your usual uplifiting guitar + drums + keyboards 4 chords verse verse chorus songs.

That usually just sucks.

I don't really like most gospel music either, though that is not very common here anyway, probably because it's more connected to American revivalism/spirituality stuff which isn't as common in Europe.

[scrdest]

Eugh, Catholic music is the worst kind of church music. Every song sounds like a funeral dirge. I've only been to a few protestant services, but the music was way more enjoyable every time. And I can't stand whatever incense Catholic priests use.

As someone who has nothing good to say about church or religion in general, I oddly like traditional catholic church music. Maybe because it sounds like a funeral dirge. Or because I like old stuff. The catholic church hasn't much going for them, but they have awesome music (and architecture).

The worst kind of church music, more often found in protestant churches is more like this:

Your usual uplifiting guitar + drums + keyboards 4 chords verse verse chorus songs.

That usually just sucks.

I don't really like most gospel music either, though that is not very common here anyway, probably because it's more connected to American revivalism/spirituality stuff which isn't as common in Europe.

As an unbelieving Catholic (read: atheist being blackmailed into going to Church via social pressure and tacit threat of cutting money by part of the family), I like some of the church music. Some of those have really nice dynamics going, and the more minor-key stuff is usually enjoyably heavy-sounding.

But on the other hand, I noticed that the organists often have to hold back. Not even 'avoid breaking into a solo' hold back, but just performing pieces that are pretty dull, musically, so that even the least musically capable (or continuous respiration during song-capable) of the churchgoers can sing it.

[TD1]

Still, I don't like it when they change church music to more modern songs (They do so rarely, but there are some new churches that have new songs. My sister's boss even made his own church, for crying out loud.  ) The psalms in particular have some good lyrics.


Edit: Also, I should note that I'm no longer an agnostic. I'm fairly certain that by this stage I have full blown atheism, heh.

[scrdest]

Still, I don't like it when they change church music to more modern songs (They do so rarely, but there are some new churches that have new songs. My sister's boss even made his own church, for crying out loud.  ) The psalms in particular have some good lyrics.


Edit: Also, I should note that I'm no longer an agnostic. I'm fairly certain that by this stage I have full blown atheism, heh.

Oh, modern ones are horrible. Reminds me of the likes of 'Don't copy that floppy', except with WhiGWAGs, lazy-ass structures and uninspired lyrics instead of the rap equivalents.