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No

Only Judeism

Only Islam

Yes to both Judeism and Islam

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

My church isn't liberal
Nor is it fire and brimstone


Though I myself do like the fire and brimstone as long as it is gods word and not jumble made by the priest to scare people

[Descan]

...

I'm... Just not even going to comment on that last part there...

[Cryxis, Prince of Doom]

...

I'm... Just not even going to comment on that last part there...

What
Not all fire and brim stone is made up
Nor is all of it in the bible


Coment, I honestly don't care

[Lord Shonus]

Oh yeah, there's definitely the whole "we must become teh powerfuls" line of thought. I merely see that as wrong and mildly hypocritical - and I will condemn any Christian church whose primary motivation is political power.

...

Oh, to a certain extent it's not even that. That churches require secular power -- via adherents, and the material resources they represent -- is a simple fact. The denomination that is going to continue to exist without material support is, well. Isn't. And ad-hoc, grass root sort of stuff... doesn't really happen -- spontaneously maintaining doctrinal cohesion without administrative support, so to speak, is basically impossible. Similarly, you need people to print and distribute holy text (bibles) and whatnot, as well as support a class of individuals who are dedicated to establishing and spreading the cult's theological base -- oral tradition really isn't going to last very long, in the grand scheme of things (especially in the face of other options for cultural transmission), and most folks just really don't have the time to maintain a sustainable memetic spread.

There's also the fact that the Church of England has had ~500 years of being the face of Christianity in England (to the extent that England is still technically a theocracy, although that hasn't mattered much for at least a century), and is thus somewhat conditioned to see a decline in the CoE to be synonymous with a decline Christianity as a whole.  While there's data to suggest that both are declining in favor of less traditional forms of spirituality (although less so than in previous cycles such as the mid 18th and late 19th centuries), the decline is much more prominent in the organized hierarchical church.

[Bouchart]

*Readies petrol bombs*

So in the (somewhat old) news, a growing number of bishops and prominent figures in the Church of England are calling for big changes, alarmed at rapidly shrinking church attendance and a rising tide of general disinterest. The most recent Anglican General Synod has, in fact, made a number of changes to that effect.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11175431/Church-must-change-or-wither-away-warns-bishop.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10458380/Christianity-at-risk-of-dying-out-in-a-generation-warns-Lord-Carey.html

Honestly, I don't think creating more liberal Christian youth groups is the way to go. Those are just the things that made me leave my Episcopal Church—among other reasons, of course. Honestly, I wouldn't mind going back to the ways of fire and brimstone preaching.

Why would anyone bother with church if it was just going to be secularism-lite?

[Frumple]

Why would anyone bother with church if it was just going to be secularism-lite?

The same reason most people seem to bother with it anyway? Traditional socialization venue their guardians inducted them in to, with some fancy ritual gewgaws to add secret-handshake equivalents (group cohesion stuff, etc., etc.).

[Arcvasti]

As far as this goes? The Church should not CATER to its audience. Nor should it browbeat them. There's sort of a fine line between the two where it kinda works.

[Descan]

Well, mostly it was that I consider the bible to basically *be* "jumble made by the [priests] to scare people [into giving them money]" so yeah. :v

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What it comes down to is that there's no reason to stick with a liberal church, and no reason not to leave a conservative one.

[Orange Wizard]

Why would anyone bother with church if it was just going to be secularism-lite?

The same reason most people seem to bother with it anyway? Traditional socialization venue their guardians inducted them in to, with some fancy ritual gewgaws to add secret-handshake equivalents (group cohesion stuff, etc., etc.).

Thus making the "church" a very narrowly-focussed book club?

[Frumple]

... not sure if you could really call it narrowly focused (I mean, christian literature, theologically focused or otherwise, is a pretty expansive field), but. Sure?

S'technically most of what it is, innit? Church tends to be there mostly to go and listen to some critter yammer about some books. Maybe talk about it a bit with other folks or sing fan-made songs. Unless they're a denomination that allows for non-biblical revelation and whatnot. New prophets, whatev'. Just with considerably more active attempts at social integration than you average book club, and I guess a long history of non-textual ritual cruft built up for some of them.

It's just that the book club buildings and whatnot tend to be really gorram expensive, so the club masters turned to geopolitical shenanigans to keep making them. Among other stuff.

E: Well, there was also folks playing with geopolitical shenanigans that decided to use the book club(s) as a means of social influence and whatnot, but eh. After a point who's doing what in regards to that stuff gets a little blurry.

[Arx]

Church is less like a generic book club, and more like a club about (one of?) the longest and most confusing self-help books ever. It's also a way to meet up with other people reading the book, because working together is one of the fundamental pieces of advice in the book. The songs are there because Christians believe in a higher power, which we choose to serve and praise. Also partly because singing together is fun and a great way to build community spirit.

As far as money goes, I've never been to a church that's trying to make money for reasons other than keeping the church running, because facilities are expensive, yes. The majority of churches are non-profit; I'd say you just notice the ones that aren't.

[Helgoland]

Also partly because singing together is fun and a great way to build community spirit.

Very much this - it's one of the few places where you can sing freely in public. That's one of the main reasons I enjoy going to Church.

[Frumple]

The majority of churches are non-profit; I'd say you just notice the ones that aren't.

Not quite. It may just be a USA thing, I'unno, but the financial side of even non-profit churches in the US is often... kinda' scummy. There's a lot of shit involving taxes and frank abuse of what counts as charity to milk cash from taxpayers. And that's not even including the churches that are non-profit in the same way some hospitals are (which is to say, in name only).

Let's just say there's a lot of churches in the states that are siphoning money from the public to keep themselves running. It's honestly kinda' fucked up, especially when many of them are using strictly "spiritual" services to qualify as a charitable non-profit. Which really shouldn't goddamn fly, but whatever.

When it comes to the material side of things, the christian religion (mind you, most others, as well) in general has pretty much always been a bit... well, not on the up and up. Insofar as I'm aware.

Also partly because singing together is fun and a great way to build community spirit.

Very much this - it's one of the few places where you can sing freely in public. That's one of the main reasons I enjoy going to Church.

Never said there was, strictly speaking, anything wrong with the songfics. It sorta' goes against parts of the bible (Sup matthews, again. Probably some other places, too.), and I'unno about other places but most of the gospel they sing in this area friggin' sucks,* but m'not exactly going to complain about people getting their sing on.

It's just, as y'all are kinda' noting, less about biblical adherence and more about group cohesion. Last I checked, it's even been noted that many hymns are specifically constructed to be... mildly hypnotic, or something along those lines. It's been quite a few years since I last looked into it.

... but hymnals and their singing are definitely something right out of the fan playbook. You see the same sort of thing come from the fanfiction community, and there's considerably more social approbation directed towards that

*Sweet christ but the majority of southern protestant gospel is just freaking terrible -- sounds bad, poor singers, poor instrumentals, and shitty messages from the lyrics, too. Only genre I've of music I've seen that's as consistently low quality as most mainstream rap or country. Even the choice of hymnals in the churches I've been in are just painful. Couple hundred people singing in concert should not make you want to fall asleep or run away to escape the racket.

It's not like the genre can't produce decent stuff, even. I'm quite fond of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot, just as an example. One of the most cheery songs of about freaking dying I've ever heard.

[Neonivek]

Not quite. It may just be a USA thing, I'unno, but the financial side of even non-profit churches in the US is often... kinda' scummy. There's a lot of shit involving taxes and frank abuse of what counts as charity to milk cash from taxpayers. And that's not even including the churches that are non-profit in the same way some hospitals are (which is to say, in name only).

The way I put it Frumple is that while a Church can certainly be non-profit... the Vatican sure as heck isn't.

Let's just say there's a lot of churches in the states that are siphoning money from the public to keep themselves running. It's honestly kinda' fucked up, especially when many of them are using strictly "spiritual" services to qualify as a charitable non-profit. Which really shouldn't goddamn fly, but whatever.

It is easier for Synagogues because it is easier for them to actually ask you directly for money for extra services required and are not as reliant on outright donations.

I do agree with the religious places of worship should get tax exemption rules... mostly because they are a free public service most of the time.