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Should other religions be added to this thread?

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Author Topic: Christian beliefs and discussion  (Read 194055 times)

Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #315 on: September 22, 2014, 12:22:32 pm »

It would be nice if Christians could be completely altruistic, but basic point of Christian doctrine: we live in a fallen world. People aren't wired to be totally selfless. It just wouldn't make sense. As a result, God has a stick to threaten us with for not being altruistic; or rather had, since the main point of the crucifixion was that Jesus took the sins of the world yadayada and you don't have to go to hell any more.

The Roman Catholic church with a pope at the head, who lives in ceremony and pomp? Surrounded by riches? Is the representative of God on Earth? I don't understand where this comes from.

I'm genuinely curious...how does the Roman Catholic Church justify aspects of itself that are non-biblical? I don't see it valid even if it comes from the bible, but at least it's understandable.
That's based on Matthew 16:18
"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

The important point here is, you can find all kinds of passages that justify whatever you want about your organisation in a holy book that you have essentially written yourself.

Where are the pages that say that what amounts to worship of Mary and (to a lesser extent nowadays, but still there) worship of saints is okay?

"Worship no false idols"

Mary is an idol.

That's always struck me as a bit odd. God's omniscient, you're not inconveniencing him by praying directly.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #316 on: September 22, 2014, 12:31:03 pm »

From what I understand saints and missy M.(as the first saint) are not "worshipped" but "venerated". The distinction being that worship supposedly means acknowledging the object as a divine, a god. The venerated saints are to be held on the pedestal as the role models - the people who got the closest to the ideal virtues of a true Christian.

One is not supposed to go overboard with the veneration, as has been declared after one of the latest ecumenical councils.
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #317 on: September 22, 2014, 12:57:36 pm »

Call it what you will, but I can venerate someone, say Tolkien, as much as I like. But I never say "Oh, please, Tolkien! Spare me from my pain! Help me, please!"

What we see indicates less of veneration and more of worship.
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mastahcheese

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #318 on: September 22, 2014, 12:58:42 pm »

Call it what you will, but I can venerate someone, say Tolkien, as much as I like. But I never say "Oh, please, Tolkien! Spare me from my pain! Help me, please!"

What we see indicates less of veneration and more of worship.
What if Tolkien did come and spare you from pain?

What would you do then?
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Arx

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #319 on: September 22, 2014, 01:02:26 pm »

Go look up the signs of the end times and print off a checklist. After asking for his autograph, of course. Priorities.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #320 on: September 22, 2014, 01:12:16 pm »

"Oh, please, Tolkien! Spare me from my pain! Help me, please!"
Jesus, man. If you didn't like LotR this much why did you keep on reading?

But seriously, you're not supposed to worship saints. You're not supposed to ask them to intervene with god on your behalf. That's the doctrine.

If it interests you just google the stuff. Don't rely on some random atheist to do it for you. The reasons are out there, such as they are, as can be expected from a huge organisation that has spent the past two millenia trying to justify its existence.

In any case, to me it seems all mighty silly to blame some people for not adhering to rules lied out by a fantasy book.


edit: fuck my engrish
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 01:14:45 pm by Il Palazzo »
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Frumple

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #321 on: September 22, 2014, 01:14:40 pm »

lied out by a fantasy book.
... was... was that a typo or intentional, IP? Nice zing either way, but...
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #322 on: September 22, 2014, 01:16:52 pm »

lied out by a fantasy book.
... was... was that a typo or intentional, IP? Nice zing either way, but...
Eh, a Freudian slip no doubt.
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RedKing

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #323 on: September 22, 2014, 01:39:19 pm »

From what I understand saints and missy M.(as the first saint) are not "worshipped" but "venerated". The distinction being that worship supposedly means acknowledging the object as a divine, a god. The venerated saints are to be held on the pedestal as the role models - the people who got the closest to the ideal virtues of a true Christian.

One is not supposed to go overboard with the veneration, as has been declared after one of the latest ecumenical councils.

It's a lot more complicated than "this was a good person". In order to be canonized, one must first be beatified. In order for this occur (on top of having had to have lived a good life, been Christian, etc.) a miracle must have occurred in some conjunction with the person (while alive or posthumous). This is taken as evidence that the particular person enjoys some special connection to God that the laiety lacks.

Then, in order to become a Saint, another miracle must occur after their death, by their intercession.

The general idea is that the second miracle proves that the deceased is already in Heaven (the rest of humanity having to wait until Judgement Day). Sainthood is the Church saying "We're pretty sure this person was soooo good that they got a GO STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN card." And because of that, and because they have a special connection to God, they can do things like grant miracles or intercede on behalf of mortals to God.

The notion of patron saints pretty much requires an Old Testment kind of God, IMHO.

God: "I will bring mighty storms over all the lands, for the nations of the Earth displease me with their iniquity!" (I've always liked the word iniquity...)
St. Andrew: "Ok, but could you maybe spare Scotland (and Russia, Ukraine, Barbados, Sicily, Greece, Cyprus, Romania, etc.)?"
God: "Uuuuuughhhhh. Okay, fine."
St. Dominic: "And spare the astronomers of the world."
God: "I...what?"
St. Valentine: "And the beekeepers!"
God: "FUCK THE BEEKEEPERS!"

And thus, colony collapse syndrome was created.


Seriously though....it's thinly-disguised tutelary deities. Initially, sainthood started off as a way to recognize martyrs, and some weird backward association with the manner of their martyrdom became infused into the notion of "patron" sainthood. St. Bartholomew was flayed alive, so he became the patron saint of leatherworkers. St. Lawrence was grilled on an iron grate, so he became the patron saint of cooks.

Later, sainthood was given to those who had merely been devout without martyrdom ("confessors"). The association continued. St. Lidwina fell while ice skating and became deformed and started losing parts of her body the rest of her life, while also becoming a mystic and healer. BAM -- patron saint of the chronically ill *and* ice-skating.

Couple that with conversion efforts towards polytheists that were used to having various deities to pray to for different things, and it's a no-brainer.
"oh, you can still pray before smithing a sword, just to St. Clement (or Dunstan or Eloy) instead of Vulcan or Hephaestus or Branwen or whoever...."
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birdy51

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #324 on: September 22, 2014, 01:47:09 pm »

Call it what you will, but I can venerate someone, say Tolkien, as much as I like. But I never say "Oh, please, Tolkien! Spare me from my pain! Help me, please!"

What we see indicates less of veneration and more of worship.

I can see where you are coming from. This is also where me and my friend deviated.

But no. We pray for someone to intercede on our behalf and pray to God, not that they themselves come down and protect us. Mary herself sort of serves the role as chief intercessor, someone who was without sin and therefore perhaps someone God is more likely to listen to. To quote from the Hail Mary, "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." The only thing we should ever ask of a saint, is that they pray for us or perhaps guidance on how to become closer with God. We are after all, imperfect.

Regardless, yes. We do venerate her and treat her with respect. After all, she is called the Mother of God for a reason. But actual worshipping of her strikes me as a bit of a stretch. That said, I can't blame you for the confusion as I can see exactly where you are coming from with considerations that some people do take it too far or miss a few points along the way about not treating her as an idol.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #325 on: September 22, 2014, 02:10:41 pm »

You both are wrong on the intercession part.

At Vatican II(1964-ish) the Catholic church has backtracked from the past practices with sufficiently convoluted hoopsjumping so as not to look as they blame themselves for doing religion wrong, and made it very clear* that "the only mediator to God is Jesus". Neither Mary nor the saints can be expected to be able to sneak in a good word for you anymore.

*as clear as you can expect. And if you don't know what to expect have a read:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
There's some interesting bits to be found there. Like, Mary is the mother of Jesus, but also is God's daughter, and Jesus is God => mind blown.
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BFEL

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #326 on: September 22, 2014, 02:34:48 pm »

Like, Mary is the mother of Jesus, but also is God's daughter, and Jesus is God => mind blown.

Dammit Christianity, could you PLEASE get over your incest fetish? I mean first you had the two people whose kids had to fuck to make everyone and now this. Jeez guys :P
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TD1

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #327 on: September 22, 2014, 02:42:46 pm »

...

Weren't Adam and Eve's children all male?

Also, it's fairly certain Mary was not a virgin. He'd have to first be physically made.

It's unlikely that God went: *BAM!* Pregnant!
Call it what you will, but I can venerate someone, say Tolkien, as much as I like. But I never say "Oh, please, Tolkien! Spare me from my pain! Help me, please!"

What we see indicates less of veneration and more of worship.
What if Tolkien did come and spare you from pain?

What would you do then?

I would be in heaven.

Praise him.

Praise the Tolkien.

Praise him.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #328 on: September 22, 2014, 02:50:37 pm »

Adam and Eves children were both male. Then one of them upped and left for the land of Nod and found a wife. So, either they were not truly the first, or God just went and made an entire nation on the side while Adam and Eve did all that snake related fruit poaching.

Bouchart

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Re: Christian beliefs and discussion
« Reply #329 on: September 22, 2014, 03:06:27 pm »

Adam and Eves children were both male. Then one of them upped and left for the land of Nod and found a wife. So, either they were not truly the first, or God just went and made an entire nation on the side while Adam and Eve did all that snake related fruit poaching.

Or the events in Genesis aren't chronological, which happens here and there in the Bible.
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