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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 442314 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3885 on: September 25, 2020, 02:30:44 pm »

It can be argued whether or not the no-knock raid and the killing itself were racist.  Definitely an argument to be had with some nuance available to pick it.  I'd argue there are racist elements, but more systemically indirect and buried.

Not so with the aftermath.  The aftermath is 100% racist.  No question.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3886 on: September 25, 2020, 02:39:37 pm »

Ultimately the question is, if you see a cop coming, should you be more afraid if you are white or if you are black? The statistics are clear: you should be more afraid if you're white.
One shouldn't be using these data carelessly to make such points, methinks. The same data (Fryer's paper, right?) show that the number of interactions is disproportionally higher for blacks. Which is to say, the number of interactions dilutes the likelihood of killing per interaction.
(It's like if we had an imaginary Eskimo state, which mandated that any Inuit should be visited daily by a cop, and after 100 visits shot dead. You would have low likelihood of Inuit shooting per interaction, but it'd still be plenty racist.)

So one could say something along the lines of: statistically, if you see a cop and you're white, it's less likely that the cop will approach you. Or, if you wake up in the morning and you're white, it's less likely that you won't live to see another day due to a cop killing you. So you should be less afraid.

But that would also be manipulation, since it ignores the crime rate statistics. I.e. statistically, if you wake up and you're black, you have a higher likelihood of having committed a violent crime, so no wonder you'll be seeing more police.

Which is not to say there is no racism involved, but it's not a clear-cut issue that can be closed (either way) with a single sentence and a reference to statistics.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3887 on: September 25, 2020, 02:40:36 pm »

The other major catch here is that police are not actually required to stand by and die politely when lawfully fired upon. Did they make mistakes? Clearly, since they shot someone they didn't mean to shoot, which is a mistake. Are no-knock warrants wrong? As a property owner, hell yes they are. But as soon as bullets are flying at the police, the police are allowed to fire back, and if someone gets caught in the crossfire, "oops". I'm not thrilled about it, honestly, but it would seem a bit unreasonable to require officers stoically to take a bullet when one's offered.

Although no-knock warrants (and I'm leaving aside the issue of whether one was actually served here) on individuals believed to be armed are certainly reckless by any colloquial definition, the fact that they are a standard, allowed procedure means that they cannot be considered so legally. You can't even get involuntary manslaughter out of this. It's obviously not a good look, but realistically, there's nothing to charge the officers with, not by actual legal definitions.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3888 on: September 25, 2020, 03:01:17 pm »

As was said above. In response to a question of why this is racism, you're claiming the cops would be punished if they shot RS - because he's RS, not because he's white. The equivalent situation should be Roger Stone - a white ER technician - being killed in a crossfire by cops returning fire after being shot at by Roger's startled boyfriend.
Roger Stone would never be in that situation, now would he? Stone's whiteness is a part of who he is. It's why his class of people don't generally get shot. Hypotheticals and edge cases do not change the reality of the race-driven drug war or its consequences, which are predominantly enacted against black people and is exactly what happened here.

Ultimately the question is, if you see a cop coming, should you be more afraid if you are white or if you are black? The statistics are clear: you should be more afraid if you're white.
Guy who admitted he hasn't seen a cop in 10 years thinks whole national crisis is overblown, news at 11.

No, black people are more likely to be killed by cops. There are just more white people total. That's how likeliness works, comparison to the base set.
That's actually not true. Per interaction, white people are more likely to be killed by cops.
That's not actually true. Black people are more likely to be killed by cops, because there are fewer black people in comparison.
Both are true, you dunces.
MS is saying per interaction. I.e. if you find yourself in an interaction with cops, you're less likely to be shot if you're black. That's independent of demographics.
MSH is saying per lifetime. I.e. if you're born black you have a higher likelihood of being killed by cops. Or, in other words, blacks in the US are killed disproportionally to the population percentage.

bless you

although it would have delighted me if you began with something with "actually"
Actually, MS is still wrong. You're more likely to receive every type of police violence if you're black.

One shouldn't be using these data carelessly to make such points, methinks. The same data (Fryer's paper, right?) show that the number of interactions is disproportionally higher for blacks. Which is to say, the number of interactions dilutes the likelihood of killing per interaction.
(It's like if we had an imaginary Eskimo state, which mandated that any Inuit should be visited daily by a cop, and after 100 visits shot dead. You would have low likelihood of Inuit shooting per interaction, but it'd still be plenty racist.)

So one could say something along the lines of: statistically, if you see a cop and you're white, it's less likely that the cop will approach you. Or, if you wake up in the morning and you're white, it's less likely that you won't live to see another day due to a cop killing you. So you should be less afraid.
Why yes, that is correc-
Quote
But that would also be manipulation, since it ignores the crime rate statistics. I.e. statistically, if you wake up and you're black, you have a higher likelihood of having committed a violent crime, so no wonder you'll be seeing more police.

Which is not to say there is no racism involved, but it's not a clear-cut issue that can be closed (either way) with a single sentence and a reference to statistics.
Good god. You ever think maybe the cops trading neo-Nazi shit and Q memes in their private chats might be the ones padding the crime stats? They are the ones creating them, after all.
The other major catch here is that police are not actually required to stand by and die politely when lawfully fired upon. Did they make mistakes? Clearly, since they shot someone they didn't mean to shoot, which is a mistake. Are no-knock warrants wrong? As a property owner, hell yes they are. But as soon as bullets are flying at the police, the police are allowed to fire back, and if someone gets caught in the crossfire, "oops". I'm not thrilled about it, honestly, but it would seem a bit unreasonable to require officers stoically to take a bullet when one's offered.
Actually, it is legal to use lethal self defense against the unlawful use of force by police. SCOTUS verified for over 100 years. Since the police violated the terms of their warrant, they were under no legal protection - they were just some guys breaking into someone's house and shooting.
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It's obviously not a good look, but realistically, there's nothing to charge the officers with, not by actual legal definitions.

have you considered

stay with me now

...murder?

That's what a person under normal laws would be charged with if they broke into your house and shot you by super my bad mistake after your boyfriend shot at the intruders, not that you've apparently ever met another human being in the rural voidspace you say you live in.
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Bumber

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3889 on: September 25, 2020, 03:05:23 pm »

Actually, it is legal to use lethal self defense against the unlawful use of force by police. SCOTUS verified for over 100 years. Since the police violated the terms of their warrant, they were under no legal protection - they were just some guys breaking into someone's house and shooting.

Which terms of their warrant did they violate?

The police still have the right to return fire when fired upon, regardless.

Edit:
It is widely quoted on the internet, under the false belief that it gives citizens the right to resist an unlawful arrest by force, including deadly force.
ROFL
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:08:37 pm by Bumber »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3890 on: September 25, 2020, 03:07:50 pm »

Actually, it is legal to use lethal self defense against the unlawful use of force by police. SCOTUS verified for over 100 years. Since the police violated the terms of their warrant, they were under no legal protection - they were just some guys breaking into someone's house and shooting.

Which terms of their warrant did they violate?
They appear to be engaging in a coverup since they won't be clear about whether it remained a no-knock warrant or was changed to a standard warrant at the last minute, but they were in violation either way.

If it was a no-knock warrant, they were violating the 4th Amendment.

If they changed it, they just straight-up busted into someone's house with a battering ram after quietly whispering "police, we have a warrant".

Edit:
It is widely quoted on the internet, under the false belief that it gives citizens the right to resist an unlawful arrest by force, including deadly force.
ROFL
Do you into reading comprehension?

The case was about the use of unlawful force, not unlawful arrest.

What's written in the wiki article also isn't entirely correct - while lower jurisdictions do operate under the idea that killer cops cannot be resisted, they are just straight-up ignoring the Constitutional law on that one. Not as uncommon a situation as you might think, either. Funny how SCOTUS just gets ignored when it's about true power...
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:10:33 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Bumber

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3891 on: September 25, 2020, 03:12:30 pm »

Do you into reading comprehension?

The case was about the use of unlawful force, not unlawful arrest.

What's written in the wiki article also isn't entirely correct - while lower jurisdictions do operate under the idea that killer cops cannot be resisted, they are just straight-up ignoring the Constitutional law on that one. Not as uncommon a situation as you might think, either. Funny how SCOTUS just gets ignored when it's about true power...

Police didn't shoot first, Breonna's BF did.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3892 on: September 25, 2020, 03:13:41 pm »

They illegally busted down the door with a battering ram, so they "shot" first. Since even insults can be considered "shooting first" under some circumstances, that's hardly controversial.

A reasonable person would shoot if armed men broke into their apartment in the middle of the night.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3893 on: September 25, 2020, 03:14:50 pm »

Honestly, smush, you're missing the point anyway. It doesn't matter if it's legal for the guy to have fired on the police, what matters is that it's legal for the police to fire back, because they are not required to just sit tight and let you shoot them.

As a result, murder is completely out the window: if they shot legally, which they did, they cannot be charged with murder for the outcome.

Since even insults can be considered "shooting first" under some circumstances, that's hardly controversial.
This is a myth.
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Bumber

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3894 on: September 25, 2020, 03:15:24 pm »

They illegally busted down the door with a battering ram, so they "shot" first.
They had a lawful warrant to do so.

Since even insults can be considered "shooting first" under some circumstances, that's hardly controversial.
Ridiculous.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3895 on: September 25, 2020, 03:22:29 pm »

Honestly, smush, you're missing the point anyway. It doesn't matter if it's legal for the guy to have fired on the police, what matters is that it's legal for the police to fire back, because they are not required to just sit tight and let you shoot them.

As a result, murder is completely out the window: if they shot legally, which they did, they cannot be charged with murder for the outcome.
It's not legal to just go around shooting people in their houses. I would have thought you'd be on board with that, property owner.

The police nullified their legal protections by acting illegally - they shouldn't have "just let themselves be shot", they shouldn't have been there at all. The whole raid was illegitimate and so they have as much expectation of security as any other home intruder.

Quote
Since even insults can be considered "shooting first" under some circumstances, that's hardly controversial.
This is a myth.
Extremely narrow these days, but a real and usable defense.

They illegally busted down the door with a battering ram, so they "shot" first.
They had a lawful warrant to do so.
Actions under a warrant are only legal if the warrant itself complies with the law and the actions taken under the warrant are legal. At least one of those things is untrue on both sides of the cops' story.

And really, why even have warrants if you're going to say they can be secret warrants? Might as well have secret prisons and executions then.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3896 on: September 25, 2020, 03:24:37 pm »

It's not legal to just go around shooting people in their houses. I would have thought you'd be on board with that, property owner.
Like I said five minutes ago, I agree that it shouldn't be legal. But it currently is.

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The police nullified their legal protections by acting illegally
That's not how it works under current doctrine.

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Extremely narrow these days, but a real and usable defense.
I knew what you meant, that's just not what fighting words doctrine means.

ETA: To clarify, since I might as well explain, fighting words are technically still legal to ban, as they are considered a category of unprotected speech, but they don't give anyone a legal right to respond with violence either.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 03:26:20 pm by Maximum Spin »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3897 on: September 25, 2020, 03:33:50 pm »

Like I said five minutes ago, I agree that it shouldn't be legal. But it currently is.

That's not how it works under current doctrine.
So you think that the Fourth Amendment does not ban this behavior?

Certainly it won't be applied that way - we've already passed that juncture when the only thing to receive a chance at justice is that poor drywall (and you certainly won't see any drop in "national security concerns" anytime soon either). But the actions of bootlickers in government doesn't change the actual shape of reality.

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I knew what you meant, that's just not what fighting words doctrine means.

ETA: To clarify, since I might as well explain, fighting words are technically still legal to ban, as they are considered a category of unprotected speech, but they don't give anyone a legal right to respond with violence either.
If someone was convicted of incitement to violence under the fighting words doctrine, you can bet the conviction will show up in the defense of the case regarding violence. Provocation is the actual name of the defense (up to partial for murder, up to total for assault), but it is most certainly a usable defense.
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Maximum Spin

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3898 on: September 25, 2020, 03:56:11 pm »

If someone was convicted of incitement to violence under the fighting words doctrine, you can bet the conviction will show up in the defense of the case regarding violence. Provocation is the actual name of the defense (up to partial for murder, up to total for assault), but it is most certainly a usable defense.
Provocation isn't a defense, it's a mitigating factor. What that means is, you still committed a crime, but you may not be punished as harshly. This is an important distinction.

So you think that the Fourth Amendment does not ban this behavior?
The Supreme Court don't think it does, and they get to decide what is legal.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #3899 on: September 25, 2020, 04:40:42 pm »

They do decide what's legal, but do you have an opinion?  They're only human, and you seem to care about the Constitution a lot.
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