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[Max™]

COPS DON'T ENFORCE LAWS, ARGH!

Seriously, this isn't joking hyperbole or leftist propaganda or anything, US cops exist to shoot poor people, black ones if available, but any will do in a pinch. If they can't find a reason to shoot them then they should at least try to lock them up so the prison system can extract some value from them.

Seriously, this is all that they do, without police we would have funded school systems, hospitals, community care programs, we could fund mental and physical health awareness initiatives, we could fund food and housing projects, we could literally eliminate everything people THINK cops do without actually getting rid of the ability for cops to do the only thing they like doing: shoot poor people.

Hopefully at that point people would go "this is horrible, get rid of these fuckers" and we'd be done.

[ChairmanPoo]

COPS DON'T ENFORCE LAWS

..of course they do. Who enforces laws if not cops?  They certainly dont enforce themselves.

You can argue that the police force is more or less corrupt/racist/whatnot. But you *need* some form of police force to have a functioning society. Its either that or old testament style collective stoning

[Max™]

You know in a dwarf fortress how everyone gets along fine until you set up a justice system and then you start getting reports of crimes?

Without cops filling quotas and looking for the latest de jure reason to lock up poor people like being homeless or jaywalking or whatever... we wouldn't have laws written to criminalize being poor enforced... is that a bad thing?

Actual crime like wage theft, larceny, vulture capitalism, they're all handled by other agencies when they're criminalized at all.

You've been seriously mindfucked if you think without cops shooting poor people we'd all just start eating each other or have to ritualistically stone people every saturday. Not your fault, our society is very good at mindfucking people, very persistent too.

Everything police get called for would be better done by a dedicated agency, mental health, conflict resolution, traffic accidents, lost pets, and yes there would still be a place for a uniquely trained and authorized group that could respond in the VERY VERY VERY VERY RARE cases of violent crimes in progress.

Cops don't even do THAT well, they get there after shit happens, not before.

[Egan_BW]

Well yeah, I mean if they got there right away they might get hurt, and that would be horrible.

[Max™]

Plus if it's in the wrong part of town it's best to let violent criminals do their thing, right?

I mean seriously, all the societal ills, the whole idea that we're all ravening rapebeasts eager to murder our neighbors so we can eat their children after fucking their wives, that's put in your head by people who benefit from having cops in place keeping poor people in line.

How many shows are there which glorify police, or present criminal activity as a seething underworld of risk and danger which everyone would love to take part in if it wasn't so dangerous due to "the good guys" busting down the door at any moment?

The missus, cute little thing sitting over there as she does, is like puppy dog sweet, I have to be careful and filter things because she will carry shit and hurt about horrible things she can do nothing about. She's a genuinely good person, like we all were as little kids when we saw a kid without a cookie and gave them ours without thinking about us not having a cookie.

She was baffled at the idea that things might be better without police until I explained that was just a result of copaganda, and broke down why none of it is true, how we could get by better without them.

She also asked what we would do if someone broke the law and I said the same thing to her: cops don't enforce the law, they should theoretically I guess, but that is a lie we've all been told for years.

Edit: So don't feel bad or too naive, I would really say the only reason I never bought into the idea of cops helping was seeing it first hand when I was 4 years old, most people don't go through that kinda shit and have it as a hard counterexample against the "cops are there to help" bullshit.

To Protect (Property) and Serve (The Masters)

[Cthulhu]

COPS DON'T ENFORCE LAWS

..of course they do. Who enforces laws if not cops?  They certainly dont enforce themselves.

You can argue that the police force is more or less corrupt/racist/whatnot. But you *need* some form of police force to have a functioning society. Its either that or old testament style collective stoning

Why are those the only options?  Who told you those are the only options and what does he stand to gain for telling you that? 

The vast majority of the laws you think the police enforce do nothing to make you safer and exist to extract money from poor people in order to balance the city's budget because the people who passed those laws also gutted the city's budget.  That's why 90% of what they have goes to the police.  People lose more money to civil asset forfeiture than any kind of non-financial theft.  This is getting into the thing I keep saying over and over, that police killing people is just the tip of the iceberg and stop telling us to give away our guns.  We're never gonna do it and it's not gonna solve the problem because the problem is a self-perpetuating cycle that runs from the guy pulling you over at 1AM to see if you've got anything he can steal your car over all the way up to the white house.

[SalmonGod]

yes there would still be a place for a uniquely trained and authorized group that could respond in the VERY VERY VERY VERY RARE cases of violent crimes in progress.

Cops don't even do THAT well, they get there after shit happens, not before.

Yup, I think we're in agreement here.

I even said, in case the memory of it gets lost in my recent posts, that there is still a place for a police force that makes use of the state monopoly on violence to help with actual violent scenarios that were violent or extremely likely to turn violent (as determined by OTHER professionals) before they got there.  Basically a muscle department that acts in a minor support role to all the others, instead of the direct opposite of that which we have now.

But I think that class of law enforcement/public service should be like 5% or less the size and power of what it is today, and needs strict mechanisms of accountability and filtering applicants for appropriate psychology & culture.

If 95% of police budget went to actually solving problems and helping people, rates of violence would drop through the floor.  Not overnight, no, but ultimately it would.  But the problem is those in power benefit from everything being terrible.  Depend on it, even.  And as with most of our society's structural problems, moderate reforms would be like removing a small portion of a large malignant tumor.  It will provide some small feeling of relief for a little while, but mean nothing in the end.

My recent arguments weren't intended to be "I absolutely want police and anything like them to be 100% gone forever".  It was that given a choice between police anywhere close to what they're like right now or no police at all, I would choose no police at all.

[Cthulhu]

Regarding the little crumbs of reforms they've been offering, I'll repeat something I said back when they started thinking about COVID relief payments:  They're not in the business of giving.  If they give, it's because they're scared you're ready to take.

They want people to say they're satisfied and go home without affecting any meaningful change.  It's worked before, but I don't think it will this time.  It's really a perfect storm, between rampant police brutality in full view of the public (A large sector of the population will never question the police, but anecdotally a lot of fence sitters are turning against them), COVID "second wave" (this is still the first wave lol, it never stopped) with the government incapable and apparently unwilling to do anything about it, and the financial crisis.  If you thought it was bad before, we just crested the bull trap this week.  The precipitous drop is ahead and will supply even more people with nothing better to do than think about how fucked they are and whose fault that is.

It's a good time to live out in bumfuck nowhere, that's for sure.

[JoshuaFH]

Regarding the little crumbs of reforms they've been offering, I'll repeat something I said back when they started thinking about COVID relief payments:  They're not in the business of giving.  If they give, it's because they're scared you're ready to take.

They want people to say they're satisfied and go home without affecting any meaningful change.  It's worked before, but I don't think it will this time.  It's really a perfect storm, between rampant police brutality in full view of the public (A large sector of the population will never question the police, but anecdotally a lot of fence sitters are turning against them), COVID "second wave" (this is still the first wave lol, it never stopped) with the government incapable and apparently unwilling to do anything about it, and the financial crisis.  If you thought it was bad before, we just crested the bull trap this week.  The precipitous drop is ahead and will supply even more people with nothing better to do than think about how fucked they are and whose fault that is.

It's a good time to live out in bumfuck nowhere, that's for sure.

I live in a small city that seems unchangeably peaceful. It's enough to make people wayyy too careless about covid, but there's no real threat of civil unrest or police brutality. I've considered making a trip to a bigger town just so I can throw myself into the thick of these protests, just so I can be doing something in what seems like a pivotal point in history.

[Cthulhu]

I think I've mentioned on here before, I live in a poor former railroad town that's kept alive on the backs of two employers, pills are everywhere, you can assume every house has at least one gun in it, but violent crime is virtually unheard of and our last homicide was in like 2008.  It's not race, or drugs, or even poverty.  I put the blame squarely on the police and the industrial complex surrounding the police.

[SalmonGod]

Great take in regards to police not being about enforcing the law



I realized this in high school.  Not because of a singular moment.  But because I went to a corrupt as fuck school that had massive health violations, staff who participated in bullying and publicly admitted to such, one teacher who was an easily identifiable child molester, openly enforced bigotry, and horrible educational outcomes (less than 50% female graduation rate).  Complaints and legal challenges were raised by those most effected by the bullshit, but the local government and law enforcement and dominant culture were on their side so the law and the police meant nothing for us.  Law enforcement is ultimately a lie that tricks you into accepting the presence of an occupying force which protects the existing dominant culture and power structure at the expense of minorities and the working class.

[ChairmanPoo]

Those are good examples of the police force sucking at its role, but it doesn't address the matter of how are you going to enforce the law without a police force. At some point words stop being enough

[Folly]

Those are good examples of the police force sucking at its role, but it doesn't address the matter of how are you going to enforce the law without a police force. At some point words stop being enough

This sounds like a job for, more guns!

[ChairmanPoo]

More like deep social reform. Which would start by reviewing police culture AND removing guns from the streets. Sorry to say but it's not going to work out without the latter.

[wierd]

There is no justifiable reason to own a firearm (as a private citizen, in one's home) inside a city limits.
There just isn't.  Not with a properly functioning civic infrastructure.


Now, when there is a systemically failing civic infrastructure (crooked cops that will kill you without knowing any facts, and without any hesitation, and with the most absurd of provocations-- Animal control that cant be arsed to show up-- Etc.)-- Then the degree that the populace seeks to arm itself for self protection could be seen as a barometer of just how systemically failing that civic infrastructure actually is.


There is no real need for guns, and people should not have a desire for guns, the vast majority of the time-- assuming that the government is not acting in a callously officious and destructive manner toward its citizenry.


THAT SAID-- given that it is now clearly an objective fact that state, county, and city governments are indeed acting in such callously officious and destructive manners (and actively enshrining bad behavior in their enforcers), who can blame people for wanting to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, given that they are in a dense environment, with roving bands of brigand enforcers doing all manner of bullshit to them, 24/7?


I would focus much more heavily on the police brigandry than I would on public ownership of weapons at this point in time. That "Thin Blue Line" needs to be expunged with prejudice-- THEN we can talk about removing guns from private owners within city limits. (Or rather, enforcing proper safety regs are met for storage, handling, and liability of those weapons, such that the costs of ownership outweigh the benefits, and people naturally seek to be rid of them for convenience. Like it should be.)