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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 442201 times)

DG

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1875 on: July 15, 2016, 02:28:59 am »

Meanwhile in Australia a police officer ran to a car and drew his gun on a driver who failed to stop for a breath test. The police officer's actions drew criticism from the magistrate and he's now under review for drawing his gun. While I'm glad he's been criticized, I'm alarmed that he thought there was any reason to draw his gun in the first place. Hopefully it isn't a sign of US style police paranoia gaining a foothold in Australia.
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Sheb

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1876 on: July 15, 2016, 04:09:58 am »



Haha that third scenario, am I really supposed to take that seriously?  Has this character never had a bee land on him at a picnic?  Flailing limbs is the best way to get stung.
And doing that during a traffic stop is completely idiotic, borderline suicidal.  What a painfully contrived situation.


I must say, I find it quite alarming that you seem to think that flailing is "borderline suicidal" and seems to be ok with that. "Not being shot" should not be a reward for good behaviour.
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Zangi

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1877 on: July 15, 2016, 09:22:01 am »



Haha that third scenario, am I really supposed to take that seriously?  Has this character never had a bee land on him at a picnic?  Flailing limbs is the best way to get stung.
And doing that during a traffic stop is completely idiotic, borderline suicidal.  What a painfully contrived situation.


I must say, I find it quite alarming that you seem to think that flailing is "borderline suicidal" and seems to be ok with that. "Not being shot" should not be a reward for good behaviour.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1878 on: July 15, 2016, 10:27:16 am »



Haha that third scenario, am I really supposed to take that seriously?  Has this character never had a bee land on him at a picnic?  Flailing limbs is the best way to get stung.
And doing that during a traffic stop is completely idiotic, borderline suicidal.  What a painfully contrived situation.


I must say, I find it quite alarming that you seem to think that flailing is "borderline suicidal" and seems to be ok with that. "Not being shot" should not be a reward for good behaviour.
Traffic stops are dangerous, since the cop can't see into the car too well until they're right at the window.  That's why it's so important to keep your hands on the top of the wheel as the cop arrives - they can see that, and know you're not holding a weapon.  So they don't have to be as careful or on edge.  Everybody's safer.

Flinging the door open in someone's face and waving your arms at them, without even shouting "bee!" or "the car's gonna blow!" or any explanation like that...  Of course it's dangerous!  It's obviously going to be interpreted as aggression, and people should know better.

And come on.  In reality, that situation would *be* an aggressive attempt to resist arrest, almost every time.  The "bee" thing is so silly.
That doesn't mean the aggressive suspect needs to get shot, obviously, they just have to get restrained before they hurt someone else.  And sometimes people make that really difficult on themselves.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1879 on: July 15, 2016, 02:01:42 pm »

I totally expect the bee would get away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist unless it was africanized.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1880 on: July 15, 2016, 02:02:38 pm »

Friend, you deserve 10/10 credit for that.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1881 on: July 15, 2016, 02:04:42 pm »

Thank you, thank you, I'll be here all week, make sure to tip your hostess.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1882 on: July 15, 2016, 02:11:09 pm »

Around killer bees flee across the seas!

Max™

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1883 on: July 15, 2016, 02:12:50 pm »

Full admission, looking at it now, it kinda bugs me that bees don't really have wrists... hah, bugs!
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1884 on: July 15, 2016, 02:14:39 pm »

If you're stung, son you're done, if it's done where you're hung.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1885 on: July 15, 2016, 02:35:15 pm »

That doesn't mean the aggressive suspect needs to get shot, obviously, they just have to get restrained before they hurt someone else.  And sometimes people make that really difficult on themselves.
They make it difficult on themselves, said every other domestic abuser that's ever lived. Because those situations actually tend to end with someone restrained with minimal harm, and the "have to get restrained before they hurt someone else" doesn't apply to the people actually causing harm, warranted or not.

It's always kinda' mind boggling that someone that's reacting poorly to being aggressed against is the one that gets called aggressive. Never mind whether it's appropriate for that to happen or for them to get restrained (however often it's actually just restraint and not the cops intentionally brutalizing someone again), it's like people expect someone who's in a intensely stressful situation, probably being yelled at by armed people known to kill at the drop of a button, and quite likely either being hurt by them, often badly, or having it threatened, to somehow remain perfectly calm and keep on top of basically every ounce of survival instinct that's screaming at them to either fight back or run. Somehow, when they don't bloody manage it, they get the majority of the blame.

Like. I'm not going to blame orderlies in a hospital for restraining someone that's hostile or reacting badly to whatever. Sometimes it is indeed necessary. But I'm also not going to shit on the person who's flipping out, especially if they start doing so after other folks start doing shit that's basically specifically tailored to cause them to flip out.

And yes, that all applies to everyone involved, not just the people the cops are hurting. S'just, y'know. One side is supposed to have training, be there to reduce the harm civilians come to (though yes, I know they ruled cops have no legal mandate to help people some number of decades ago, and it hasn't changed), massively expanded breadth of legally allowed action (which is supposed to come with equally expanded responsibility and culpability but hahaha the last ever), so on, so forth.

... though I guess it's getting better on that front, sorta'. Cops getting called more for their half of the shit sandwiches these situations consist of, some acknowledgement of how much of a clusterfuck policing actions tend to be just due to their nature, no longer zero sympathy or understanding for the non-cops involved (if still usually not much, as evidenced by the immediate turn to character assassination media likes to jump on whenever someone gets hurt in an interaction with the police). In media, even, which would have pretty close to never happened a decade or two ago. Still not facing any bloody repercussions for it most of the time, and only some precincts are actually trying to reign themselves in, but it's a marginal improvement from 10, 20 years ago, by and large. And with the social pressure looking like it's not going to lessen until the killings and beatings do, it might actually become something reasonable in my lifetime. Maybe. In some places (though it already is in some places, for what it's worth). It'd be nice.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1886 on: July 15, 2016, 03:02:22 pm »

It's always kinda' mind boggling that someone that's reacting poorly to being aggressed against is the one that gets called aggressive.
In the context of those videos we just watched, I stand by calling the third person (throwing open his door, waving his hands as if about to strike down) aggressive.
Even though it's staged nonsense.  Justified by a bee.

That doesn't mean the aggressive suspect needs to get shot, obviously, they just have to get restrained before they hurt someone else.  And sometimes people make that really difficult on themselves.
They make it difficult on themselves, said every other domestic abuser that's ever lived. Because those situations actually tend to end with someone restrained with minimal harm, and the "have to get restrained before they hurt someone else" doesn't apply to the people actually causing harm, warranted or not.

It's always kinda' mind boggling that someone that's reacting poorly to being aggressed against is the one that gets called aggressive.
Domestic abusers are scum.  Even without evidence, people need to be able to escape those situations and obtain restraining orders to do so securely.
Most suspects in the highest-profile "abuse" cases made things difficult for the officer.  Law enforcement is not equivalent to a loving relationship.  An investigator is not a lover.  There's no trust, it's an interaction between strangers.
Never mind whether it's appropriate for that to happen or for them to get restrained (however often it's actually just restraint and not the cops intentionally brutalizing someone again), it's like people expect someone who's in a intensely stressful situation, probably being yelled at by armed people known to kill at the drop of a button, and quite likely either being hurt by them, often badly, or having it threatened, to somehow remain perfectly calm and keep on top of basically every ounce of survival instinct that's screaming at them to either fight back or run. Somehow, when they don't bloody manage it, they get the majority of the blame.

Like. I'm not going to blame orderlies in a hospital for restraining someone that's hostile or reacting badly to whatever. Sometimes it is indeed necessary. But I'm also not going to shit on the person who's flipping out, especially if they start doing so after other folks start doing shit that's basically specifically tailored to cause them to flip out.
Being stopped by a cop is stressful, I know.  I'm 30, it *has* happened to me three times.  Once I was innocent, once I was guilty, once I was sorta-guilty.  I never once considered throwing open my car door and running.
Because I'd probably get fucking tazed, or even shot.  Because I'd be openly resisting arrest!
Suspects (people in a law-enforcement situation) don't have a right to flee the scene.  That's completely ridiculous.  Much less stun cops with a door.

And yes, that all applies to everyone involved, not just the people the cops are hurting. S'just, y'know. One side is supposed to have training, be there to reduce the harm civilians come to (though yes, I know they ruled cops have no legal mandate to help people some number of decades ago, and it hasn't changed), massively expanded breadth of legally allowed action (which is supposed to come with equally expanded responsibility and culpability but hahaha the last ever), so on, so forth.
Training isn't magic, and it's in short supply.  Most cops can do their best, but there's a limit at which they're risking the chance that an aggressive suspect will go free to find victims.  And maybe that they'll get knifed in the process, and they're alone because *we don't have a decent salary budget to cover our territory*

It's pretty ironic that we have budget to increase surveillance on them, but not to hire backup.  I don't recall any borderline cases where the accused officer had a partner.  Seems like that would help everyone.

And I think that body-cams are *good*.  Not perfect, but I would like *every* cop to have one anyway.  Those videos were absolutely ridiculous edge cases which shouldn't distract us from idea of holding police responsible.
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Strife26

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1887 on: July 15, 2016, 04:25:06 pm »

Lolwhat. Most cases and sop are multiple cops working together. Doesn't remotely change people getting shot and the good old thin blue line guarantees that everyone covers each other's ass in the subsequent inquiries.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1888 on: July 15, 2016, 04:32:04 pm »

Of the recent high-profile acts of police misconduct which made news headlines, did many of the cops have a partner?  I got the impression it was mostly solo cops.
There might be causation there.
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SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #1889 on: July 15, 2016, 04:41:05 pm »

Of the recent high-profile acts of police misconduct which made news headlines, did many of the cops have a partner?  I got the impression it was mostly solo cops.
There might be causation there.

Very, very few of the cases I see involve police working solo.  I can only think of two off the top of my head.  Most of the high-profile cases I can think of involved several.
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