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[Sheb]

Yeah, I've never seen anyone advocate struggling with the cops. If anything the "cops are racist violent aby-eater" rethoric you rant against would make people more cautious around cops.

[Strife26]

Yeah, it's a thing that totally happened.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/the-benefits-of-fewer-nypd-arrests/384126/

The NYPD Union got pissy about the mayor not supporting them enough, followed by a work slowdown and markedly improved conditions in New York for awhile. A large chunk of modern policing is being a dick under questionable "Contempt of Cop" and Broken Window Theory crimes.


I'd like to see someone do a study about how many arrests and tickets are mostly Contempt of Cop instead of whatever actually goes on the piece of paper.

[SalmonGod]

More conspiracy and corruption

[Frumple]

... y'know, I think out of all of that, what got me the most was that they named one of their information gathering (or something along those lines, anyway) systems TRED. It's, like. Seriously? You named it a barely changed tread? Bloody farcical. Jackboot says hi! It's decided to stop even freaking trying.

I appreciate absurdity in my fiction, not my high level legal news, goddamnit.

[Loud Whispers]

My all time favourite is still the one where the police threw a grenade at a baby

[Strife26]

I mean, the flashbang in the crib is a thing that I can see happening. Mr. Grenade isn't anyone's friend once the pin is pulled. It's more the fact that every village has their own half-assed swat team and wants to use them whenever there's anything close to an excuse that leads to the problem.

[Sheb]

Dunno if I should post it here or in the Amerithread, but apparently 40% of the people fighting forest fire in California are inmates paid 1$ an hour.

[Frumple]

Either works, really.

And yeah, we use prisoners as functional slave labor. Dime'll get you dollar any experience they get doing that will mean jack shit insofar as finding work goes once they get out of jail, too :V

[Baffler]

Dunno if I should post it here or in the Amerithread, but apparently 40% of the people fighting forest fire in California are inmates paid 1$ an hour.

That article dishonestly paints a picture of press-ganged inmates from the general population with little to no training or experience. What it doesn't tell you is that:

1) They're volunteers.
2) Every one is a minimum security inmate with no history of violence, generally with less than two years on their sentence. Arsonists need not apply either, hehe.
3) They only serve 8 months, including their training.
4) The article understates the amount of training they receive. They do two weeks of physical conditioning, then two more weeks of training on fire safety and suppression, which is at the lower end of what civilian firefighters do but still within range.

Yes it's dangerous work, but it's not nearly what the article makes it out to be.

[Sheb]

Yeah, one of my though was "Well, I'd volunteer for that too". But then, we don't really do prison labor that much.

[Strife26]

Wow, last time I fought fires, my training was a full hour, including twenty minutes for lunch. In any case, better to work for pay then sit and stare at a wall

[BurnedToast]

Dunno if I should post it here or in the Amerithread, but apparently 40% of the people fighting forest fire in California are inmates paid 1$ an hour.

That article dishonestly paints a picture of press-ganged inmates from the general population with little to no training or experience. What it doesn't tell you is that:

1) They're volunteers.
2) Every one is a minimum security inmate with no history of violence, generally with less than two years on their sentence. Arsonists need not apply either, hehe.
3) They only serve 8 months, including their training.
4) The article understates the amount of training they receive. They do two weeks of physical conditioning, then two more weeks of training on fire safety and suppression, which is at the lower end of what civilian firefighters do but still within range.

Yes it's dangerous work, but it's not nearly what the article makes it out to be.

Don't forget - they also get two days off their sentence for every day they work, they get more (and better quality) food while working, they get to spend time outdoors instead of in a cell, they learn useful skills that they might be able to use after they get out, and perhaps most importantly - they get treated like useful human beings instead of caged animals.

Also, yes the job is dangerous, but they've had zero fatalities and only a small number of serious injuries the whole time it's been running so obviously they do take the inmate's safety into account.

You could argue they should be payed more (and I'd probably agree) but in reality the money is not the real payment anyway, and most or all of them would probably volunteer for it even if the pay was $0.

It actually seems like a pretty good program to me, overall.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah they could even become firefighters after they've done their time

[SalmonGod]

Have to point out the opposite side of the argument, though... the fact that these programs provide an incentive for privately run prisons to lobby for a regressive justice system that provides them with as many profit-generating inmates as possible.  And that this fire-fighting bit may not be representative of most prison labor programs. 

Not an argument against giving inmates an opportunity to get out of their cells and do something constructive so much as an argument against private prisons in general.

[Frumple]

Conditions evidentially bad enough that food, sentence reduction, and more (/any) walkabout is worth risking injury, serious injury, and (not yet, which is at least something) death, is one of those things I question as being actually volunteer. Maybe with some air quotes around the word, I'unno. The incentive at all makes it questionable. Considering the likelihood of internal pressures as well... good program is not what I'd call something like what's being discussed. Maybe superficially so, but not much beyond that.

The (barely existent, notably undercutting non-criminal paid firefighters) pay and bad joke* that is suggesting the skills they're learning is something that's going to help them afterwards is just icing on the cake.

Mild frustration vented, as per SG, yeah, getting people out and helping is a good thing, so long as it's actually being helpful and not just being as bloody exploitative and counterproductive as much of our penal system is.

*The numbers involved should make it incredibly clear that the experience is getting the participants jack-all after release. If they were, nearly half the cali firefighting force wouldn't be coming out of prison programs -- they'd be ex-cons with training, doing the job they already did.

Technically firefighter organizations in the states don't automatically disqualify people with a criminal record for actual employment, but it's the next best thing -- same with most other fields the skills they're learning would be applicable. Last I checked it can even get you barred from a bloody volunteer position.