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Author Topic: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice  (Read 442324 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #390 on: December 04, 2014, 12:47:34 pm »

It's true that in Garner's case, it doesn't appear that they were very forceful in the video.  One officer puts the hold on him, and they all let him gently to the ground.  He doesn't maintain the hold for very long.  Certainly not long enough to make a normal person pass out, and you can't really judge visually but it doesn't look like he's putting that much pressure on his neck.

But that still doesn't matter in-context in the slightest.  The fact remains that the encounter was over nothing more than selling loose cigarettes (which I believe is only a crime because they're not being taxed).  Garner had not made the slightest aggressive motion towards the officers.  He only began voicing his frustration at being constantly harassed by them for trying to make ends meet, and IIRC, the whole confrontation was less than two minutes and entirely peaceful before they spontaneously decided to do a physical takedown maneuver. 

I can't understand how anybody could see that as justified.  If you're going to lay hands on a person, it should be for a good reason.  That's the standard normal citizens must live by.  If I touch another person in any way, I expect to be held accountable for anything that may happen to them as a result, no matter how unexpected the consequences or whatever my intentions were, unless I am acting in self-defense or on some consenting basis.  It's totally understandable for police to have justifications besides self-defense, but I don't believe that the less than immediate and total compliance of a small-time non-violent criminal is such a justification.  Lacking such a justification, I think it's completely wrong and dangerous to society for police not to be held accountable in exactly the same way a normal citizen would be, because their behavior was not within the scope of any professional obligation.  It was a choice that they independently made and should take responsibility for.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 12:50:55 pm by SalmonGod »
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #391 on: December 04, 2014, 04:22:17 pm »

Geez, it just doesn't end.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/phoenix-police-unarmed-man-killed-by-officer/19878931/

With all these cops feeling "threatened" at everything, I think maybe they should stop hiring cowards.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #392 on: December 04, 2014, 04:25:39 pm »

Clearly if people would just stop getting pissed off when they kill people for no reason, cops wouldn't feel as threatened on the street, and they wouldn't have to kill as many people for no reason. It all works out. Nope, no problems here.
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #393 on: December 04, 2014, 05:42:48 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dLwSdgEOupE


A robbery in France, caught on cam. Just for reference, police arrive at about 5min.

Wow. If that were the US, this would have been a death situation. Also lol@6:02, guy tries to just leave with the cop blocking the door. I'm amazed at how foreign it looks to me to see police not escalate a situation to violence immediately.

These kids surrendered immediately, they chose not to escalate.  Brown escalated by punching the (lone) officer in the face and wrestling for the live gun.  That is escalation.  Wilson didn't escalate by shooting at Brown, Brown brought the gun into play.  And then Wilson didn't even shoot Brown in the back.

The robbery isn't relevant to Wilson's decision since he didn't know about it.  And it's not necessary to judge Brown's general character.  Whatever his skin color or background, he:
Jaywalked (bear with me)
As a result, was approached by a cop.
Punched that cop through the car window
Instead of taking the opportunity to run, reached in to steal the cop's gun, resulting in it going off twice I think?
When he failed to steal the firearm (what did he plan to do?), he ran.
The cop fired shots which didn't hit Brown.  I don't know if they were warning shots, or aimed at limbs, or just bad aim.
Brown then turned around and charged the armed police officer, and was predictably gunned down.  What did he expect?  What was he trying to do?

A suspect assaulted a lone police officer repeatedly until the officer shot him.  And this was the most egregious example of police misconduct people could find to protest about?

Edit: Though the case was mishandled... It should definitely have been brought to trial, mostly because of the public outcry.  The DA handled it very poorly and even suspiciously.  The riots were foolish, but probably could have been avoided with a trial.  The protests were justified in that sense.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 05:48:22 pm by Rolan7 »
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #394 on: December 04, 2014, 06:52:17 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dLwSdgEOupE


A robbery in France, caught on cam. Just for reference, police arrive at about 5min.

Wow. If that were the US, this would have been a death situation. Also lol@6:02, guy tries to just leave with the cop blocking the door. I'm amazed at how foreign it looks to me to see police not escalate a situation to violence immediately.

These kids surrendered immediately, they chose not to escalate.  Brown escalated by punching the (lone) officer in the face and wrestling for the live gun.  That is escalation.  Wilson didn't escalate by shooting at Brown, Brown brought the gun into play.  And then Wilson didn't even shoot Brown in the back.

The robbery isn't relevant to Wilson's decision since he didn't know about it.  And it's not necessary to judge Brown's general character.  Whatever his skin color or background, he:
Jaywalked (bear with me)
As a result, was approached by a cop.
Punched that cop through the car window
Instead of taking the opportunity to run, reached in to steal the cop's gun, resulting in it going off twice I think?
When he failed to steal the firearm (what did he plan to do?), he ran.
The cop fired shots which didn't hit Brown.  I don't know if they were warning shots, or aimed at limbs, or just bad aim.
Brown then turned around and charged the armed police officer, and was predictably gunned down.  What did he expect?  What was he trying to do?

A suspect assaulted a lone police officer repeatedly until the officer shot him.  And this was the most egregious example of police misconduct people could find to protest about?

Edit: Though the case was mishandled... It should definitely have been brought to trial, mostly because of the public outcry.  The DA handled it very poorly and even suspiciously.  The riots were foolish, but probably could have been avoided with a trial.  The protests were justified in that sense.

I have not read a single witness testimony that aligns with the series of events you've described.

To be fair, I haven't read any testimony that has been assembled in the past month or so.  I've been unbelievably drowning in business.  I really wish I had time to be more up to date and engage in this discussion better.  But on the other hand, I read the stories from all the major witnesses and watched all the audio and camera footage during the first couple months following the event.  If the witnesses all changed their stories much since then, something is up.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:56:41 pm by SalmonGod »
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #395 on: December 04, 2014, 07:27:56 pm »

I mostly got that sequence of events from reading this thread...

What part seems wrong?  I thought there was consensus that there was a fight for the gun, and that Brown was shot (at a distance) while facing Wilson.  Probably charging.  Here's what the New York Times says the witnesses said about Brown charging:

Quote
Some witnesses said Mr. Brown never moved toward Officer Wilson when he was shot and killed. Most of the witnesses said the shots were fired as he moved toward Officer Wilson. The St. Louis County prosecutor said the most credible witnesses reported that Mr. Brown charged toward the officer. Officer Wilson also said that Mr. Brown charged at him, making “a grunting, like aggravated sound.”

Some witnesses said that Mr. Brown had his hands in the air. Several others said that he did not raise his hands at all or that he raised them briefly, then dropped them and turned toward the officer. Others described the position of his arms as out to the side, in front of him, by his shoulders or in a running position.

Some witnesses also claimed Brown was shot in the back, until that was refuted by actual investigation...  Naturally some of the witnesses didn't get a clear look, and subconsciously filled in the blanks.  Since it's somehow a popular idea that cops murder helpless black people, that's what they thought they saw.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #396 on: December 04, 2014, 08:26:55 pm »

I've seen three different pieces of media recorded immediately after the shooting by witnesses.  There's this one, which I'm only linking because it took 10 seconds to find.  I don't have time to dig up the others.  Another one taken from a window by someone who started recording the scene and talking about it immediately after he died.  And then an audio recording from someone who was in a Skype call, and described what he was witnessing as it took place during the call.  The people in these media bits all plainly state that he had Brown had his hands in the air, and they all express shock at the officer's actions.  If Brown had been attacking the officer, I don't believe people would be reacting this way immediately during or after witnessing the event.

There are a bunch of witnesses.  Almost none of them dispute that Brown was shot at while running away.  Not a single one says he charged at Wilson.  Almost every one mentions Brown stopping, turning, and putting his hands in the air after shots were fired at him while running away.

The most disputed elements are what happened inside the car, and that's entirely a matter of Wilson's testimony vs Dorian Johnson's.  Wilson described the the kids having an incredibly belligerent attitude and then attacking him.  Dorian describes the officer pulling his car in front of them and grabbing Brown through his window.  No other witnesses say anything substantial to give extra weight to either account, but a couple do say that Brown appeared to be attempting to pull away from the window.  Most likely, both sides are exaggerating their version.  But even if you believe Wilson's version of the story, what the fuck is he doing pulling his car into reaching distance of a large man who he alleges just expressed some aggression towards him.  That is blatantly initiating a violent encounter that was never necessary, and I would still place the blame in Wilson in that case for making the situation into what it was. 

That is my opinion of the vast majority of these deadly encounters with police.  The excuse is always that it was a close encounter and they were acting on panicked reflexes, because they didn't have any time to react otherwise.  But in almost every case, it was the officer's choice to rush the encounter and make it deadly by immediately moving into close quarters and behaving confrontational, instead of employing any patience (keeping distance, waiting for back-up, etc) or attempting to engage the suspect in any remotely civilized manner.

I would have wrote this up in more detail with more links and everything.  Most people here should understand that would normally be my style in a discussion like this.  But I'm still incredibly busy and have a bunch of work yet to do tonight.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:32:53 pm by SalmonGod »
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Rolan7

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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #397 on: December 04, 2014, 09:30:22 pm »

I've seen three different pieces of media recorded immediately after the shooting by witnesses.  There's this one, which I'm only linking because it took 10 seconds to find.  I don't have time to dig up the others.  Another one taken from a window by someone who started recording the scene and talking about it immediately after he died.  And then an audio recording from someone who was in a Skype call, and described what he was witnessing as it took place during the call.  The people in these media bits all plainly state that he had Brown had his hands in the air, and they all express shock at the officer's actions.  If Brown had been attacking the officer, I don't believe people would be reacting this way immediately during or after witnessing the event.

I think we should refer to their actual testimony, not a video of some of them reacting minutes after the traumatic event.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/26/1347781/-Ferguson-what-the-witnesses-said
Paraphrased from the Final section:
Witness 1: Brown turned around and walked about 10 steps towards Wilson, got shot 3-4 times, then stood there for a while before falling down.
Witness 16: Brown put his hands in the air and never moved towards Wilson, was shot twice, and fell forward.
Witness 10: Brown was 15 yards away.  He charged about 5 yards towards Wilson then was shot at 4-5 times.  Brown stopped charging, and Wilson stopped firing.  Then Brown resumed charging and was shot at 4-5 more times, after which he collapsed.
Witness 12: Brown turned towards Wilson and walked towards him "slow and curled up".  Was shot 3-4 times then fell.
Witness 14: -
Oh jeez that one's long.  Actually, I'm done summarizing these.
Edit: (That's the order as they appear on the site, I wasn't cherry-picking)

Well, here's an obvious wrong testimony from Witness 41, just to drive home that witnesses can be unreliable (not that anyone is disputing that):
Quote
The officer got out of his truck, SUV rather and that?s when he stood over the boy and just emptied his clip. (voices concern that the shots were so rapid, that Wilson might have been carrying an automatic weapon) Michael was on his knees with his hands up. ... he was saying something, Michael was to the police officer. ... [Wilson's] just shooting-shooting-shooting right there and the bullet hit him right here (demonstrates location of shots). And, that's when he was going down and the police stand there and shot him again in his head. ... that was the last bullet that went off was in his head.

Anyway, the testimonies are there to read.  Some must be wrong, and probably most are partially wrong, but the most consistent parts are that Brown turns around and approaches Wilson aggressively.

There are a bunch of witnesses.  Almost none of them dispute that Brown was shot at while running away.  Not a single one says he charged at Wilson.  Almost every one mentions Brown stopping, turning, and putting his hands in the air after shots were fired at him while running away.

With respect, this isn't true.  Several say Brown charged, and only a few say his hands were up in the air.  About as many describe Brown's hands as being about chest height...  Either palms out, or as ready fists as he charged.  Palms out would suggest inept surrender, of course, except that so many say he was charging or at least advancing on Wilson.

The most disputed elements are what happened inside the car, and that's entirely a matter of Wilson's testimony vs Dorian Johnson's.  Wilson described the the kids having an incredibly belligerent attitude and then attacking him.  Dorian describes the officer pulling his car in front of them and grabbing Brown through his window.  No other witnesses say anything substantial to give extra weight to either account, but a couple do say that Brown appeared to be attempting to pull away from the window.  Most likely, both sides are exaggerating their version.  But even if you believe Wilson's version of the story, what the fuck is he doing pulling his car into reaching distance of a large man who he alleges just expressed some aggression towards him.  That is blatantly initiating a violent encounter that was never necessary, and I would still place the blame in Wilson in that case for making the situation into what it was. 

I haven't gone over the witness accounts of this part carefully, since it seems like a hard situation to observe accurately.  But as for your question...  What would you have suggested Wilson do?  Lean out the window and shout at Brown in public?  Or, just leave?  White people can't jaywalk in front of cops with impunity either, particularly if they're acting suspiciously or aggressively.

Cops walk up to suspects constantly, it's basically their job.  Instead of being afraid of large people, they assume that people know assaulting an officer is a very serious crime and escalation.  Think "suicide by cop".

That is my opinion of the vast majority of these deadly encounters with police.  The excuse is always that it was a close encounter and they were acting on panicked reflexes, because they didn't have any time to react otherwise.  But in almost every case, it was the officer's choice to rush the encounter and make it deadly by immediately moving into close quarters and behaving confrontational, instead of employing any patience (keeping distance, waiting for back-up, etc) or attempting to engage the suspect in any remotely civilized manner.

I would have wrote this up in more detail with more links and everything.  Most people here should understand that would normally be my style in a discussion like this.  But I'm still incredibly busy and have a bunch of work yet to do tonight.
Approaching Brown discreetly *was* the most civilized option.  In response Brown punched him in the face for it and tried to steal his *gun*.  Two shots were fired at point blank while Brown was at the car, and neither hit Brown.  How else do you explain that?

Edit:  Again, this definitely deserved an actual trial.  Not a bunch of forum discussions and public outrage.  Terribly mishandled.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 09:33:58 pm by Rolan7 »
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #398 on: December 04, 2014, 09:34:08 pm »

Yeah it should have been brought to trial if only because the cross examination would make things clearer.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #399 on: December 04, 2014, 09:40:35 pm »

With respect, this isn't true.  Several say Brown charged, and only a few say his hands were up in the air.  About as many describe Brown's hands as being about chest height...  Either palms out, or as ready fists as he charged.  Palms out would suggest inept surrender, of course, except that so many say he was charging or at least advancing on Wilson.

Wait- people charge with their hands at chest level? That sounds like it would look pretty comical.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #400 on: December 04, 2014, 09:45:49 pm »

With respect, this isn't true.  Several say Brown charged, and only a few say his hands were up in the air.  About as many describe Brown's hands as being about chest height...  Either palms out, or as ready fists as he charged.  Palms out would suggest inept surrender, of course, except that so many say he was charging or at least advancing on Wilson.

Wait- people charge with their hands at chest level? That sounds like it would look pretty comical.

I think football players do? Or they might? Pretty sure Brown didn't play football though.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #401 on: December 04, 2014, 09:51:27 pm »

The most disputed elements are what happened inside the car, and that's entirely a matter of Wilson's testimony vs Dorian Johnson's.  Wilson described the the kids having an incredibly belligerent attitude and then attacking him.  Dorian describes the officer pulling his car in front of them and grabbing Brown through his window.  No other witnesses say anything substantial to give extra weight to either account, but a couple do say that Brown appeared to be attempting to pull away from the window.  Most likely, both sides are exaggerating their version. But even if you believe Wilson's version of the story, what the fuck is he doing pulling his car into reaching distance of a large man who he alleges just expressed some aggression towards him.  That is blatantly initiating a violent encounter that was never necessary, and I would still place the blame in Wilson in that case for making the situation into what it was. 

The bolded statement is really, really questionable. Are you suggesting that an officer of the law's ideal reaction to intimidation is to stay completely out of confrontation range? Are you really saying that the ensuing violence is the officer in question's fault because he got within range of someone's arms? That's blatantly ridiculous.
The officer is not at fault if Brown attacked him. He is at fault if he shot a person who was not a) attempting to flee (believe it or not, the cops are allowed to shoot you if you run and they have reason to believe you are violent) b) actively perpetrating a violent crime against anyone. I think the officer is guilty myself, but the whole "fear the vicious police" and general ignorance of what the law allows officers to do to defend their community and their person is troubling. If the story played out as Brown assaulted the officer and ran, or Brown assaulted the officer and charged, it would have been acceptable to shoot. Instead according to the testimony made public (some testimony may not have been disclosed to the public) Brown may have assaulted the officer (likely IMO) but did not then flee or charge, rather attempting surrender. In this case, it is clearly unexcusable for the officer to have shot.

I wish more people would discuss Eric Garner's death. That is a much clearer example of utterly and unambiguously unwarranted assault on a civilian from a police officer. I guess that since it happened in New York and thus there weren't racially motivated riots nobody cares.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #402 on: December 04, 2014, 10:02:23 pm »

With respect, this isn't true.  Several say Brown charged, and only a few say his hands were up in the air.  About as many describe Brown's hands as being about chest height...  Either palms out, or as ready fists as he charged.  Palms out would suggest inept surrender, of course, except that so many say he was charging or at least advancing on Wilson.

Wait- people charge with their hands at chest level? That sounds like it would look pretty comical.

I think football players do? Or they might? Pretty sure Brown didn't play football though.

Especially odd is that people believe this account given that Darren Wilson was firing his gun at the person who allegedly decided to 'charge like a football player'.
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #403 on: December 04, 2014, 10:19:14 pm »

I've seen three different pieces of media recorded immediately after the shooting by witnesses.  There's this one, which I'm only linking because it took 10 seconds to find.  I don't have time to dig up the others.  Another one taken from a window by someone who started recording the scene and talking about it immediately after he died.  And then an audio recording from someone who was in a Skype call, and described what he was witnessing as it took place during the call.  The people in these media bits all plainly state that he had Brown had his hands in the air, and they all express shock at the officer's actions.  If Brown had been attacking the officer, I don't believe people would be reacting this way immediately during or after witnessing the event.

I think we should refer to their actual testimony, not a video of some of them reacting minutes after the traumatic event.

Why?  I would think of immediate reaction as the most honest indication of what happened vs detailed descriptions of the event by people who have had time to mix memory with agenda or other influences.

As for your link to the compilation of witness testimonies, I honestly didn't know there were so many.  Like I said, I just haven't had time to stay in touch with things for over a month.  I've been basing my argument on the witnesses that came forth in the first month or so following the event.  So I guess you've got that on me.  However, the picture you're painting still doesn't match the version of events that the article you linked deems most likely according to their analysis of the witness testimonies, compiling the bits of information that are most consistent between the witnesses that seem the most reliable.

Spoiler: this (click to show/hide)

I haven't gone over the witness accounts of this part carefully, since it seems like a hard situation to observe accurately.  But as for your question...  What would you have suggested Wilson do?  Lean out the window and shout at Brown in public?  Or, just leave?  White people can't jaywalk in front of cops with impunity either, particularly if they're acting suspiciously or aggressively.

Cops walk up to suspects constantly, it's basically their job.  Instead of being afraid of large people, they assume that people know assaulting an officer is a very serious crime and escalation.  Think "suicide by cop".

Approaching Brown discreetly *was* the most civilized option.  In response Brown punched him in the face for it and tried to steal his *gun*.  Two shots were fired at point blank while Brown was at the car, and neither hit Brown.  How else do you explain that?

He didn't just approach Brown.  He halted his vehicle and altered course spontaneously enough to screech his tires, and pulled his vehicle directly up next to the suspects.  That is not the behavior of anyone approaching a situation calmly, strategically, or civilly.  That is the behavior of someone looking to start some shit, and is incredibly likely to be perceived this way by the other party, putting them in a fearful position, even if an intense encounter wasn't intended.  This also isn't the slightest bit proportionate to a refusal to stop jaywalking.

Also, leaning out the window and shouting at Brown in public is exactly what he did.  Followed by Brown and Johnson refusing, and Wilson then pulling his vehicle up next to them.

Approaching them in closer quarters to engage more personably (without slamming on the brakes and swinging the vehicle around abruptly...) would perhaps be appropriate if they weren't acting suspiciously or aggressible, but according to Wilson's own story, this wasn't the case.  In this case, I would think a more appropriate approach would be to slow down and stop a good distance away, call for back-up and observe for a moment how the suspects are behaving.  If they're not fleeing or attacking, simply step out and announce that they've refused a lawful order and they should reconsider.  See where that goes.  Talk to them.  If they seem reasonable, do so as you would with a normal person.  If they don't keep your distance and avoid escalating.

Quote
Instead of being afraid of large people, they assume that people know assaulting an officer is a very serious crime and escalation.  Think "suicide by cop".

In summary, this seems to be a very common perspective, and I completely disagree with it.  It's not about being afraid.  It's about approaching every situation and reasonably and non-violently as possible.  Avoiding any form of escalation.  Immediately getting in people's faces and reaching for weapons while shouting orders is the exact opposite of this, but it's what I see in almost every single case where a cop kills somebody. 

The shooting of Kajieme Powell also in the St Louis area only a few days after Brown is a perfect example.  Guy acting suspiciously.  Obviously going to be a tense situation.  So what do they do?  Come roaring up in their car, stop and get out within lunging distance of the guy, pull out their weapons and start shouting, and then shoot him when he approaches.  There's no attempt to assess the situation before acting, and no excuse for this because he wasn't harming anybody.  There's no waiting for the back-up that is less than a minute away.  There is no attempt to establish or maintain safe distance.  Nothing.  It was obviously suicide by cop, yes, but the result cannot be blamed entirely on the suspect when the police have every opportunity to approach the situation in such a way that obliging his suicide attempt shouldn't be necessary.

Quote
Edit:  Again, this definitely deserved an actual trial.  Not a bunch of forum discussions and public outrage.  Terribly mishandled.

At least we agree on this.



Are you suggesting that an officer of the law's ideal reaction to intimidation is to stay completely out of confrontation range?

Absolutely!  I don't understand why there is disagreement on this.  I'm not saying that police should avoid confrontation.  I'm saying they shouldn't engage in it in such a way that makes the situation more fear-provoking and dangerous for everyone.  If they think somebody is going to behave violently, they should keep a distance.  That's what they have a gun for, right?

When they get within arm's reach of a person that they have any reason to believe may act violently, they are willfully creating a circumstance where they will be obligated to use deadly force the moment the suspect behaves the slightest bit unpredictably.  They are willfully increasing the likelihood that somebody is going to die.

If distance is kept, there is no reason to shoot unless the suspect also pulls a gun, or is likely to succeed in an escape attempt and is an established threat to public safety.

I really don't care how the law says they are or are not allowed to react to a situation.  Law and ethics are not one and the same.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 10:32:20 pm by SalmonGod »
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Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« Reply #404 on: December 04, 2014, 10:44:57 pm »

Thanks for the reply.  I don't fully accept with that site's conclusion (yes, even though I linked it!  It just had a convenient list of actual quoted testimony) but it's a reasonable conclusion.

I don't think the video of the aftermath actually demonstrates much...  The contractor in the red shirt raises his hands, yes.  Some of the witnesses do remember Brown raising his hands way up, and standing still.  Most of them remember things very differently.  Some of these people were seeing what they expected to see, or what other people said they saw.

I find it very misleading that the channel calls the video "moments after the shooting", when the other two police are already putting up tape.  It's clearly minutes later, after people have had a chance to share what they saw with each other.  The actual testimonies are limited to what each person remembers themself, not what other people at the scene told them.  No matter how much sense it made at the time.
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No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.
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