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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 372893 times)

Puzzlemaker

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2580 on: February 01, 2017, 10:20:55 am »

I believe the best course of action at this point is... wait and see.
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lordcooper

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2581 on: February 01, 2017, 10:32:07 am »

Bit self important?

A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.

So just popping by to be mysterious for a bit?
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forsaken1111

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2582 on: February 01, 2017, 10:46:02 am »

Bit self important?

A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.
Sorry you had a bad experience, but that wasn't us. It's certainly not our fault the KS backers were shitheels.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 10:50:14 am by forsaken1111 »
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Serenseven

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2583 on: February 01, 2017, 10:47:13 am »

Erm, your last post before the one defending your simplification was in August last year - I'd hardly say that classifies as 'keeping communication going'.

I completely understand and agree with your reasons for simplifying things, but people are desperate to find out what happened and how much hope there really is left - so if you're genuine about wanting to keep communication going, then I'm sure everyone would be all ears to hear what's really happening behind the scenes.

I was speaking of the period from November 2015, when Josh first vanished from the forums and I went and hunted him down, to July/August 2016, when I resigned as a moderator and when I last heard from Josh.

At this point anything I know has been either shared with the official forum, posted publicly here or elsewhere, is no longer relevant to the current state of development, or is something I was told by Josh or Fenicks not to share.

So just popping by to be mysterious for a bit?

Cthulhu mentioned me by name in this thread. I just stopped by to see why I was being talked about.
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Xgamer4

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2584 on: February 01, 2017, 12:42:57 pm »

...It's been 6 months since you resigned? Yeesh, that's longer than I thought. Thanks for what you did do, for what that might be worth.

...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?
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Lapoleon

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2585 on: February 01, 2017, 04:11:21 pm »

Bit self important?

A bit bitter. You try going out of your way to keep communication going between an absent developer and increasingly angry (and in some cases, increasingly trollish) backers while getting repeatedly attacked for it, and you'd eventually say to hell with it all and to hell with them, too.

Hey, we weren't all that bad Sean  ;)

Glad to see my avatar at least is still finding some use. At least one actual thing that TWS has produced  :P
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Serenseven

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2586 on: February 02, 2017, 08:24:54 am »

...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?

It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.
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nenjin

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2587 on: February 02, 2017, 09:50:40 am »

...And morbid curiosity, so no pressure to answer. You've read the most recent update, I'd imagine. Do those sound like solutions to the problems, as you understood them?

It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.

Brutal...for a sim game that's a pretty damning take on things.
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Serenseven

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2588 on: February 02, 2017, 07:25:58 pm »

It sounds like a solution to the problem, in the same sense that a problem with not being able to get a model airplane to fly can be solved by deciding you really wanted to build a model train instead.

Brutal...for a sim game that's a pretty damning take on things.

Not meant to be entirely damning. After a couple years of trying unsuccessfully to get the plane to fly, I don't think he really had a choice other than scrap it and go for the train.

The tag-based system where modifiers and events and so forth grew "organically" out of AI interactions with and interpretations of the various tags is gone. There is a stricter "type system" (no relation to variable type systems in coding) that is more rules-based now. Josh stopped talking before I could get out of him the entirety of what this means, but from what I understand, the AIs now "decide" much less organically and instead select from a menu of options based on the relevant skills, traits, modifiers, etc. that apply to the current situation. A king making a decision on how to respond to an invasion will have a standard menu of political and military responses, but a king of a magical nation may have additional Ritual responses, a king suffering from a Madness modifier would have "mad" responses, etc.

Josh was vague about this, but I think before the AIs had no restrictions on what they could do (obviously the various systems made some responses far more likely than others, but theoretically anything was possible). Instead of a fixed menu of "mad" options, a king with Madness would try to cobble together a response that included, potentially, anything at all in the game data with the Madness tag. The interaction of many unbounded AIs (and the fact that everything in the game was potentially available to be used in ANY interaction whatsoever) over many turns ensured that eventually some subset of the AIs would get into a mutual positive feedback loop, leading to progressively weirder behavior of the AIs and eventually of the game engine itself, leading to crashing.

The part I left out before was the extreme difficulty of programmatically trying to figure out which few out of a thousand independent and somewhat nondeterministic AI entities are at risk of developing feedback and diverting them from that path without having negative effects on their "competence" or the game's overall stability. There are ways of dealing with such things - feedback issues arise all the time in certain areas of electrical engineering (an audio amplifier is an example of carefully-controlled positive feedback), for example - but I'm not sure that knowledge is widespread in the coding community, and the calculations required to handle a thousand simultaneous entities would be considered a massive undertaking. Josh did try some of the simpler "clamping" methods, wherein a value growing unboundedly is clamped at an arbitrary maximum, but this had severe side effects on the AI - it often would just stop "thinking" (probably because the additional constraint imposed by the clamping gave the AI's scorer no acceptable solution to its model of the problem) - and given the sheer number of entities, he may not have been able to find a more complex solution that still had acceptable performance (remember, the player is waiting for his/her next turn while all this AI work is going on - more than a few seconds and it's taking too long).

But if you instead say that an AI faced with an invasion event can only take one of X predefined actions, with the details of those actions perhaps altered (in well-defined ways) by local modifiers and other situational effects, then you greatly minimize the chance that the AI will fly off the rails because you actually have rails to begin with. And then other AIs looking at the invaded AI can go "Aha! I know he's being invaded, and he's heavy into Lore, so he'll respond in one of 12 standard or 4 lore-based ways." Now, if this other AI knows about local modifiers, than he can factor that into his calculations. If he doesn't, then he assumes the "standard" actions...and his plan might go awry depending on how close the "standard" action corresponds to the reality of the situation.

I think if it was well-implemented, and the pool of available actions and modifiers is sufficiently large to ensure a wide variety of potential results, our model train might still be able to fly a little bit from point to point. It won't have the unrestrained freedom that the plane might have had (and we might not get the hilarious edge-case stories like the Hero with Forty Marriages), but then again, it might not crash and burn constantly, either.

No way to tell, of course, unless/until we can get our hands on the game...
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Retropunch

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2589 on: February 02, 2017, 07:47:27 pm »

The part I left out before was the extreme difficulty of programmatically trying to figure out which few out of a thousand independent and somewhat nondeterministic AI entities are at risk of developing feedback and diverting them from that path without having negative effects on their "competence" or the game's overall stability. There are ways of dealing with such things - feedback issues arise all the time in certain areas of electrical engineering (an audio amplifier is an example of carefully-controlled positive feedback), for example - but I'm not sure that knowledge is widespread in the coding community

I'm unsure what you mean by 'feedback' in this context?

It sounds like his original model was literally going for full AI implementation - in terms of that he was attempting to get the AI to understand almost completely arbitrary information, understand it's context and build decisions based upon it. That's like...what the greatest coders in the world are trying to work on.

It's why everyone models their AI the second way; give it a list of possible things it can do, and use variables to choose.   

edit: thanks McScoopBeard!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 09:03:12 pm by Retropunch »
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2590 on: February 02, 2017, 08:23:19 pm »

you may wish to fix them quotes laddie.
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Cthulhu

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2591 on: February 02, 2017, 11:10:46 pm »

We were never gonna get the model plane, so if he actually manages to give us a model train and it functions you know I'll be the first one eating crow, just as I was one of the first people getting hyphy over here.

He mentioned procedural generation.  If you've opened some kind of channel with him again, though it sounds like it might've closed, I'd kind of subtly nudge nudge that we probably wouldn't mind if he abandoned the stretch goals completely for the time being.
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ggamer

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2592 on: February 27, 2017, 12:16:12 pm »

awwww god dammit, I was playing Panzer Corps today and I got reminded of this game - it sucks that this turned out to be another kicknonstarter

Fewah

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2593 on: March 13, 2017, 03:04:13 pm »

Quick update...

This is looking more and more like an organised scam.
Josh (The creator) has another company calling 2 Handsome Guys and they recently launched ANOTHER kickstarter for a card game.
This is all despite having no time and being very stressed with That Which Sleeps.


All information here: http://matthewhopkinsnews.com/?p=4769
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Mephansteras

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #2594 on: March 13, 2017, 03:10:33 pm »

Hmm, disturbing.
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