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Author Topic: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!  (Read 368047 times)

Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1695 on: November 28, 2015, 10:56:03 am »

you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.

>_>

Painfully to say... if you did do that... the trend states that Tarn Adams will die before the game is complete.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 10:59:21 am by Neonivek »
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Sergarr

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1696 on: November 28, 2015, 10:59:49 am »

you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.

>_>
It's more that you could get with TWS, you know, with its "I'm totally going to do this thing next week, guys" bullshit.
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._.

Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1697 on: November 28, 2015, 11:02:21 am »

you could get an estimate for release time by extrapolating the current development speed.

>_>
It's more that you could get with TWS, you know, with its "I'm totally going to do this thing next week, guys" bullshit.

I think the difference is more that Tarn Adams actually keeps you up to date so the waiting isn't painful. You can stop looking and be confident something is being done.

While TWS currently is projecting the idea that development isn't moving forward and there is some sort of unknown trouble.

I sympathize with the developers because I have the exact same problems (DANG IT players >_< I have a depressive episode I'll get to it later), but I don't feel the problem because I am loosely following it. Waiting between major videos.

Heck I get mad at developers, even ones who do it for free, for getting annoyed at fanbases who would be instantly placated if you gave them a status update every week... even if it was as little as saying "I worked on this"
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 11:06:23 am by Neonivek »
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ndkid

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1698 on: November 28, 2015, 11:26:51 am »

Could we veer the conversation at least back to the failings of the TWS developers? I feel like a conversation about definitions of vaporware and whether DF meets that definition probably belongs in the DF General Discussion forum, not the "Other Games" forum.
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Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1699 on: November 28, 2015, 11:30:07 am »

Could we veer the conversation at least back to the failings of the TWS developers? I feel like a conversation about definitions of vaporware and whether DF meets that definition probably belongs in the DF General Discussion forum, not the "Other Games" forum.

Better yet can we Veer it back towards current development.

I do like that they have multiple starts for each of the old ones, many of which can have drastically different effects on the world, but I wonder if some of them were the exception or if all of the old ones will be like that.
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thegoatgod_pan

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1700 on: November 29, 2015, 10:48:13 am »

This conversation is making me realize that our contemporary desire for a completed game is a carry over from 19th century patronage traditions. Like 19th century patrons we want something we can hang in the dining room already, and call our own. Like them, we value artworks both for themselves, and for what control over them represents for us. It all reminds me when Manet painted some asparagus for a patron, who compained about the painting being too small for the price. So Manet painted him a tiny bit of Asparagus to "make up the difference in weight"
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.

If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.

The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 10:52:36 am by thegoatgod_pan »
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More ridiculous than reindeer?  Where you think you supercool and is you things the girls where I honestly like I is then why are humans on their as my people or what would you?

miauw62

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1701 on: November 29, 2015, 05:33:07 pm »

Miner Wars had a playable product, but was called vaporware by... basically everybody.

I can sort of see the point with DF. Toady has grand ambitions, and if the dev wasn't Toady I'd tell them they'll give up after a few months at most.
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ductape

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1702 on: November 29, 2015, 06:36:34 pm »

This conversation is making me realize that our contemporary desire for a completed game is a carry over from 19th century patronage traditions. Like 19th century patrons we want something we can hang in the dining room already, and call our own. Like them, we value artworks both for themselves, and for what control over them represents for us. It all reminds me when Manet painted some asparagus for a patron, who compained about the painting being too small for the price. So Manet painted him a tiny bit of Asparagus to "make up the difference in weight"
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.

If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.

The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.

This post was great. Though the story of Manet is not true. The painting was commissioned and the buyer overpaid. Manet was being gracious and sent him, who was a close friend, the extra painting with a note, "this one was missing from your bunch". Cute story either way.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 06:44:36 pm by ductape »
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thegoatgod_pan

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1703 on: November 30, 2015, 08:29:29 pm »

This conversation is making me realize that our contemporary desire for a completed game is a carry over from 19th century patronage traditions. Like 19th century patrons we want something we can hang in the dining room already, and call our own. Like them, we value artworks both for themselves, and for what control over them represents for us. It all reminds me when Manet painted some asparagus for a patron, who compained about the painting being too small for the price. So Manet painted him a tiny bit of Asparagus to "make up the difference in weight"
We are the same with our nitpicks, and much like Manet, Toady gives us a sprig of asparagus at a time. Unlike 19th century patrons we are dealing with a novel art form that never results in a singular, significant object anyone can truly claim to own.

If Tarn Adams spends his entire life never finishing dwarf fortress, it will still be an artistically significant game and an important project for the art history books, but it couldn't be conclusively finished (there could always be new goals) and still encompasses all the prior unfinished versions as parts of itself. That it is unfinished it good. The Mona Lisa and the Last Supper are also unfinished.

The end is like the "inevitable death" ending in Stanley Parable: finished but very ossified, a museum installation instead of a game.

This post was great. Though the story of Manet is not true. The painting was commissioned and the buyer overpaid. Manet was being gracious and sent him, who was a close friend, the extra painting with a note, "this one was missing from your bunch". Cute story either way.

That makes it a much nicer story :)
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More ridiculous than reindeer?  Where you think you supercool and is you things the girls where I honestly like I is then why are humans on their as my people or what would you?

Neonivek

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1704 on: November 30, 2015, 08:34:21 pm »

Especially since in one Manet was kind of being a jerk who responded to criticism by insulting his customer in a very elaborate fashion.

While in the other Manet was concerned about a friend who paid too much for a painting, and out of the goodness of his heart he gave him an extra one with a bit of a joke attached.
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gimli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1705 on: December 01, 2015, 11:23:23 am »

So...some new infos (posted by backers): Page 8&9.

It looks like that the AI is causing CTDs...ouch!
No videos or beta until this is fixed of course. Let's hope that it won't take months to fix, but who knows...sounds like a nasty and complex AI related problem.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 11:31:23 am by gimli »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1706 on: December 01, 2015, 12:34:13 pm »

Doesn't sound that complex. Just an infinite loop
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Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

gimli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1707 on: December 01, 2015, 12:59:23 pm »

Well, it's related to AI decisions, and it's very complex in TWS. It's the heart of the game.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1708 on: December 01, 2015, 01:02:25 pm »

But it's a matter of stopping the loop.  Overall AI design might be hard, but I doubt this particular will be.
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Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

gimli

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Re: That which sleeps- Kickstarted!
« Reply #1709 on: December 01, 2015, 01:04:48 pm »

Let's hope so!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 01:06:52 pm by gimli »
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