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[Neonivek]

This looks pretty sweet.

I've complained about it before, it seems like whenever people try to do a "villain simulator" video game it's goofy tongue in cheek bullshit.  Overlord, Dungeon Keeper, etc. etc.  I think it's because video game developers are generally incapable of subtlety.  I don't think a lot of devs could make a "serious" villain simulator without being overly violent or offensive or just generally hideous (See the ridiculously over the top Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion for a good example of what happens when video game developers try to play it straight.)

I'd really like to see someone play the idea straight for once and do it right and this seems like what I've been hoping for.  Still not getting hyped until something playable comes out of it though.  I appreciate that it seems like they dropped the announcement pretty well into development, instead of showing us pre-pre-pre-alpha vapor.

The problem is MOSTLY that a villain simulator tends to be a silly concept in it of itself... because all you get is a character who does EVIL because they are EVIL!

Kane and Linch are examples of games that... err wait... no they play up the campy comedy.

Black and white... err no... that game is a farce

Fable... no wait.. you play the good guy even when you are the bad guy...

Ok so no game does that.

To make a successful serious villain game you need to have a character with a goal... and then establish limitations.

[nenjin]

It's really just that most games omit a villain's reason for being.

Take Dom4 for example. The story is pretty well laid out. The Pantokrator is a huge dick, imprisoning spirits and demi-gods left and right. Different spirits had different roles in the universe prior to his ascension. When he poofs, suddenly all these repressed spirits get a chance to claim the world as their own, to act out their role. It's no different than every other villain's motivation of AMBITION! but it's fleshed out with enough details so it's believable, it's interesting and you get buy-in from the player to your ideas and world lore. Games like Overlord and Dungeon Keeper have a narrative too, but it's both spoiled by humor and the villains themselves still aren't that memorable, or interesting. So you get no buy-in, just grudging acceptance.

It's often disappointing to me that what's necessary to set the stage for a good villain game isn't art, it isn't coding....it's goddamn writing and contextualization, and many developers seem to skip over it.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but NO ONE is a good person in Dominions version any of them. Heck even Pantocreator is a big jerk...

It is more of a black and grey world... So by what respect are you the villain?

[nenjin]

Yeah but NO ONE is a good person in Dominions version any of them. Heck even Pantocreator is a big jerk...

It is more of a black and grey world... So by what respect are you the villain?

Eh, there are plenty of at least neutral figures in Dom4. And what makes you a villain is your approach. Sure, you could nurture each province, grow its population, improve its fortresses and provide for the common defense....or you could make your dominion a life-obliterating and plague and pillage the shit out of every new province because you don't care about its people or its prosperity.

In that sense, you're a villain more by what you do than than just simply the fact you have horns and paths in Death and Blood Magic.

[KingDinosaurGames]

What I've always enjoyed more than the "evil" that is at the heart of the struggle is those who are drawn to his cause.  The question of "How could they have fallen" is always loaded with an implicit storyline, we are generally given a dominant flaw or concept of the character and left to fill in the narrative of how that one character trait led to this outcome.   

Attempts to humanize "great evils" often tend towards really abstract arguments or goals, trying to lend them a godlike "rationale" that goes beyond our morality - the humans agents are often motivated by issues rooted in the world.  Jealousy, greed, and those shunned by society are motifs that are explored often in books but not so often in games.  I'm hoping that the Agents allow the player the chance to have those narratives within the world, even if the evil that you technically play as remains somewhat more unknown.

[Cthulhu]

Sometimes I think the simple motivations are nice.  Like the thing in Amnesia that chases you because you took the Orb.  It doesn't do it for revenge or because it needs the orb or anything, it's a force of nature.  It retrieves and returns the orb in the same way gravity returns things to the ground.

A lot of elder evils don't need much more motivation than that.  They're the Darkness.

[Cthulhu]

Going along with the new screenshot I'm tantalized now.  Any chance of getting some info on the end game?  Like I'm guessing Karth will take a more military approach with armies of demihuman worshipers and such which is awesome actually, but will we get to have huge final boss battles in the rpg combat system you've teased between the elder evil and the chosen ones?  What other kinds of end game states might we expect?  Like a cthulhu style villain i'd imagine would be catastrophic just in the process of waking, is Azlan gona be the kind of dude you seal away before he emerges or not at all?  How does that kind of god (the "I'm awake and now everyone is cutting out their own eyes and eating each other" kind) translate to a fun but still chalenging end game?

[Neonivek]

I once had someone criticize that a "Destroyer of all" is a terrible motivation because they will want to destroy themselves and would have done so first.

I don't agree with them... (mostly because the person just didn't like Lovecraft and was criticizing it based off of dislike that he doesn't extend the same logic to things he does like...) but still.

I'd honestly think that if the god awakened that you would lose... It would be interesting if you don't lose immediately but in a few (very few) turns.

It was always somewhat disappointing when you cast the game ending spells and the game just ENDS... Equally annoying is when you cast the game ending spells but you still have to hunt down the final sliver of resistance (DANG IT Master of Magic... the world is a giant volcano I won!)

[nenjin]

I'd imagine a mind-warping elder god would basically be like playing the game on hard mode.

The whole point of the game is to do evil without being discovered as the source of it.

And it'd be a little harder to go incognito when your very existence causes people in the world to go mad. That's the kind of red flag you can't hide very easily.

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, that seems to be the main thing, 15 Whatevers (years?  Turns?  Probably not individual turns that'd be a short game) you have to survive in exchange for crushing everyone when you do get out.  I'm just wondering how interesting the getting out part would be there, compared to the kind of god that gets to lead big armies and go all Sauron on the world.

[KingDinosaurGames]

Glad you're liking the new look, as for the end game I'm not sure how much I've posted here on it but the grand idea for the flow incorporates two major elements, the Chosen One and the Alliance AI.

The Chosen One is the hero foretold to defeat you, and depending on the archetype (sage, leader, adventurer) he will go about it in a different way, and if you want to win you should absolutely be paying attention to his strategy.  A leader will rally the nations of the world together, mending bad blood and finding allies in strange places - you can expect the Alliance to have a strong military.  A sage will quickly identify your nature, finding your weaknesses, and begin to spread tactics to dull your strengths - expect the Alliance to be well prepared to battle your agents and deal with your powers, and for the Chosen One to seek great artifacts and perform powerful rituals to seal you away.  Finally the adventurer, the adventurer varies highly based on his class, but you are most likely to see the kind of cataclysmic final battle at the Old One's Seal with an adventurer type - he will find powerful heroes to be his allies, equip himself and his team well, and then prepare to smite you.

As for the Alliance and the way the world reacts to your powers, look at it this way.  If the world begins to suffer from crazy earthquakes and waves of madness how does each nation act?  A nation may turn inward, caring for itself and its own people, close its borders.  Another may try to seize the opportunity to grab some neighboring land.  These are good things for you, and how the individual AI can behave - the alternative is that they join the Alliance (the actual name is determined by the leader of the alliance), in which case they work together to solve what is plaguing the world.  So yes, people may think something is wrong when the dead rise from their graves and stalk the land, but if you can make sure their response is to stay neutral until your victory is guaranteed that's the key to victory.

On a personal note, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE when the game comes down to final battles at the Old One's Seal.  The number of agents and heroes that can be there is currently a "problem" for our GUI, but we're reworking combat right now to allow truly massive climactic battles.

So the other thing you mentioned was Karth - Karth wakes early as you said and he spawns Orc military units (called to his side) constantly while being able to perform other extremely powerful actions.  He also can empower other agents with a similar power, meaning that you can raise a lot of expendable units.  Yes, this may seem like you're exposing yourself to the heroes as an obvious Old One but whose to say what rumors reach civilized lands?  Maybe its a god, or more likely just a 'powerful chieftain'... Managing the type of clues you leave, distracting the other nations, limiting WHO you attack and the SCALE of those attacks... the same mechanics apply even with a different pace.

Hopefully I'm not spoiling too much, part of the fun of the game is in understanding these mechanics as you fail and are sealed away again and again.

[nenjin]

By all means, spoil away. Every time you start describing how you envision it working, I'm impressed by the interconnected nature of consequences. For example:

As for the Alliance and the way the world reacts to your powers, look at it this way.  If the world begins to suffer from crazy earthquakes and waves of madness how does each nation act?  A nation may turn inward, caring for itself and its own people, close its borders.  Another may try to seize the opportunity to grab some neighboring land.

Is the kind of cause/effect depth that is lacking in a lot of games. Whether that's live or still just an idea, it's what has my interest piqued in this game (besides the overall theme.) If you can deliver on that kind of complexity, TWS will definitely stand out from similar 4x strategy games because of it.

[Cthulhu]

Yeah, ther'es lots of 4x games where you can play a villainous character, and the game sounds cool overall, but the AI is what really makes it standout.  I'm hyped because of the AI.

Also, I like that answer.  I guess my brain kind of wants to parse the game as being about getting to your resurrection and kind of automatically winning at that point, but it sounds like even with the more sleepy gods there'll be a lot going on even after you wake up, even to the point of staying under cover after your waking.

[Cthulhu]

I know this is my second double-post, but it's important.  I know there's already ways to bring heroes over to your side by manipulating their willpower and such, maybe some Arthas/Darth Vader shenanigans, but what if you could force them to serve you with a ritual?  Maybe there could be a whole god who does it.  He can capture heroes and turn them over to his side, giving them special powers and such.  Build himself a cadre of unique demigod agents called, I dunno, "The Captured."

And he can be called like, "The Controller."  The Controller and his Captured. 

Yes.  That would be fun.

[Scripten]

I know this is my second double-post, but it's important.  I know there's already ways to bring heroes over to your side by manipulating their willpower and such, maybe some Arthas/Darth Vader shenanigans, but what if you could force them to serve you with a ritual?  Maybe there could be a whole god who does it.  He can capture heroes and turn them over to his side, giving them special powers and such.  Build himself a cadre of unique demigod agents called, I dunno, "The Captured."

And he can be called like, "The Controller."  The Controller and his Captured. 

Yes.  That would be fun.

I like everything but the names. Can we go with "The Dominator?" How about "The Dominator" and his "Taken?"

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