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[TD1]

I'm gonna start writing this, 'cause someone will ninja me I'm sure.

I like to write, and have on more that one occasion been told that "Women like poets, but poets don't like women."

I don't care, or let it effect me in any action I might take. If someone wants to take the job, there are law imposed that will let them. They may succumb to a bit of peer pressure not to do it, but, really, no one is going to stop you with pitchforks and mobs.

If you want to do it enough, you will and can do it.

[Angle]

Yes, those are true, but I would blame them more on the attitudes of men than on women or feminism.

Dang blameless women and their ability not to contribute to society! (joke)

I always find it funny when people essentially transpose women out of society in these discussions and give them perfectly progressive minds.

Yeah because no women put pressure on women to succeed more and if they do it is because a man told them. *sarcasm*

I do no such thing. I just think that such things are best fought by men because we're the ones who have the most thorough understanding of the issues. I also think that feminism should be primarily pushed by women, as they have the understanding of the issues at hand.

[TD1]

I'm gonna start writing this, 'cause someone will ninja me I'm sure.

I like to write, and have on more that one occasion been told that "Women like poets, but poets don't like women."

I don't care, or let it effect me in any action I might take. If someone wants to take the job, there are law imposed that will let them. They may succumb to a bit of peer pressure not to do it, but, really, no one is going to stop you with pitchforks and mobs.

If you want to do it enough, you will and can do it.

Well, damn.

A second away from the required ninja

[Reelya]

And some of them are actually resulting in accepting men over women, particularly in certain academic fields. There aren't enough men applying to Psychology Ph.D. programs. There aren't enough women applying to Physics Ph.D. programs. I think feminism can help solve both of these by deconstructing commonly understood gender roles and allowing people to pursue fields that interest them equally, as opposed to many young women being discouraged from doing things related to engineering, and young men being mocked for getting involved in a soft science. That deconstruction is the part that I find most fascinating about feminism.

Really? boys are as a whole falling behind in education at all levels. I have not seen any feminist proposals to fix that. They're more or less hostile to the idea of doing anything that focuses on boys problems, with the general argument that it takes the focus off girls problems. I see a lot of flip flopping : when it suits them, feminism is about equality, but when you bring up a "boy problem" feminism is just for the girls, so get your own movement / advocacy going, who's stopping you? We got our movement, get yours.

But, as soon as some pro-boy education advocacy comes up, then that gets stomped on for being outside feminism, because feminism is about equality and has everyone covered. Except when it doesn't.

[Samarkand]

And some of them are actually resulting in accepting men over women, particularly in certain academic fields. There aren't enough men applying to Psychology Ph.D. programs. There aren't enough women applying to Physics Ph.D. programs. I think feminism can help solve both of these by deconstructing commonly understood gender roles and allowing people to pursue fields that interest them equally, as opposed to many young women being discouraged from doing things related to engineering, and young men being mocked for getting involved in a soft science. That deconstruction is the part that I find most fascinating about feminism.

Really? boys are as a whole falling behind in education at all levels. I have not seen any feminist proposals to fix that. They're more or less hostile to the idea of doing anything that focuses on boys problems, with the general argument that it takes the focus off girls problems. I see a lot of flip flopping : when it suits them, feminism is about equality, but when you bring up a "boy problem" feminism is just for the girls, so get your own movement / advocacy going, who's stopping you? We got our movement, get yours.

But, as soon as some pro-boy education advocacy comes up, then that gets stomped on for being outside feminism, because feminism is about equality and has everyone covered. Except when it doesn't.

Depends heavily on which feminists you talk to. I know some who are very concerned that boys are lagging in education. They see it as a feminist issue, because they believe part of the problem to be that boys are being told that doing things like reading are "girly." And these feminists, they just think that word is a toxic part of our lexicon. There are certainly feminists that act as you described, but don't confuse them with all feminists. BTW, I haven't seen a single decent proposal to fix that problem, because nobodies got a freaking clue what all is causing it, and that includes me. How to fix our education system is the multi-billion dollar question.

Also, I'd like to clarify the "feminism is about equality" thing. Most definitions do not state this. Its a common misconception. Feminism is often many things, but its usually "approaching an issue from the point of view of the female rather than the culturally dominant male," "empowering women," or "deconstructing gender norms." Lack of equality is the number one motivator, often, but it is not what the movement is.

[Heron TSG]

Sorry to dig this up, but it was buggin' me while I was reading through the thread.

That is the old "Create, Change, and destroy" dichotomy.

A Trichotomy is what that is.

And with that point of pedantry, I'm going to sit and watch where this goes before butting in.

[TD1]

"Depends heavily on which feminists you talk to" seems to be a go to response. Why is it even a movement if it can't decide what it wants?

Besides that, this doesn't depend. It's dependent on the action of the entire movement, which I do agree, doesn't give a fig about boy rights. It is a feminist movement, and focuses on that, which is fine of course. But, were there to be a movement advocating equality for boys, it would be persecuted by feminism as being anti-feminine.

[Glowcat]

It is a feminist movement, and focuses on that, which is fine of course. But, were there to be a movement advocating equality for boys, it would be persecuted by feminism as being anti-feminine.

The "Men's Rights" movement has only been opposed due to how it focuses primarily on detracting from feminism, or, as has been the case anytime there's an argument around feminism on these boards, there are people who, instead of caring about men's issues as something on their own, use them to attack feminist advocacy without ever dealing with the problems themselves. Instead they seem eager to point at problems men are suffering from and say "See! There's no problem!" and help absolutely nobody.

[Cheeetar]

"Depends heavily on which feminists you talk to" seems to be a go to response. Why is it even a movement if it can't decide what it wants?

Besides that, this doesn't depend. It's dependent on the action of the entire movement, which I do agree, doesn't give a fig about boy rights.

Nope! Everybody I've talked to both online and offline who's described themselves as feminists have been interested in equality between members of both genders.

[Samarkand]

"Depends heavily on which feminists you talk to" seems to be a go to response. Why is it even a movement if it can't decide what it wants?

Besides that, this doesn't depend. It's dependent on the action of the entire movement, which I do agree, doesn't give a fig about boy rights. It is a feminist movement, and focuses on that, which is fine of course. But, were there to be a movement advocating equality for boys, it would be persecuted by feminism as being anti-feminine.

"It would be" is a dangerous series of words by which you mean you have condemned them without seeing their action first.

As for "why is it a movement?" Its actually a crapton of movements, some formally named, some not. Tiny variations all over the place. Simone de Beauvoir championed feminist existentialism. Not all about equality, more about the self, and what womanhood meant. Second wave feminism was lots of legal rights stuff, the "equality" mantra that you now associate with all feminists. These are not the same movements, despite the fact that they are both feminism. Feminism is a broad term, just like moral positivists do not all agree on what is moral.

[TD1]

As you say, "it depends on the feminist." I'd say I'm correct in assuming that any proper equivalent of feminism for men would be called a home for misogyny by a sizable number of women. "That man says we should educate males more in some areas than they do for women! Why are the boys get preferential treatment?"

[Cheeetar]

I'd say I'm correct in assuming

You assume that your assumption is correct. Unfortunately, you are still assuming things with no evidence that such a thing would happen.

[Samarkand]

As you say, "it depends on the feminist." I'd say I'm correct in assuming that any proper equivalent of feminism for men would be called a home for misogyny by a sizable number of women. "That man says we should educate males more in some areas than they do for women! Why are the boys get preferential treatment?"

Calling for more education of one than the other is preferential treatment. And not even remotely the solution. So there's that.

The male equivalent of feminism is terribly difficult to define, namely because, and I can't emphasize this enough, we are under entirely different social pressures. If you mean asking for males to be given more education then women, yeah, you'll get a few accusations of misogyny. If you mean men trying to deconstruct social norms without identifying with the feminist movement, nearly every feminist I know would love that.

[TD1]

The feminist movement is baying for better education prospects for girls in things such as maths. Were a male-based organisation to say they wanted resources used to further the education of boys in, say, home economics or English, it would not go down well.

I don't want a male-movement. Nor do I want a female-movement. But, as that doesn't seem likely, I want considerate feminists. They exist, of course, but are being drowned out by some very loud...well, feminists. They are so loud that the movement, like it or not, is being defined by them.

I'd say I'm correct in assuming

You assume that your assumption is correct. Unfortunately, you are still assuming things with no evidence that such a thing would happen.

Em. Yes. I have no evidence on a hypothetical situation, sorry to disappoint.

[Samarkand]

The feminist movement is baying for better education prospects for girls in things such as maths. Were a male-based organisation to say they wanted resources used to further the education of boys in, say, home economics or English, it would not go down well.

I don't want a male-movement. Nor do I want a female-movement. But, as that doesn't seem likely, I want considerate feminists. They exist, of course, but are being drowned out by some very loud...well, feminists. They are so loud that the movement, like it or not, is being defined by them.

I'd say I'm correct in assuming

You assume that your assumption is correct. Unfortunately, you are still assuming things with no evidence that such a thing would happen.

Em. Yes. I have no evidence on a hypothetical situation, sorry to disappoint.

Half the time the "better education for girls", especially in math, is organized around convincing people that it is appropriate for girls to be good at math, and that it shouldn't merely be bitten of as above them, not specifically giving more time to girls than boys.