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[Samarkand]

I really appreciate the name of this thread, some of the ideas mentioned here have indeed been quite strange.

[Angle]

Yeah, I don't think Anita Sarkeesian is terribly extreme. Rebecca watson is so completely unextreme, it hurts to hear that. Seriously, I watched that video- she spends one minute out of eight saying "Don't ask people for sex when they're in elevators, its creepy." X| I mean come on, you think that's extreme? Aaaaargh internet why do you do this to me.

As for bitching, it may have been insulting at one point, but now it's cycled around to be more a mild way of making fun of yourself than anything else. "Yeah I'm just bitching, dude. Don't worry bout it."

Anyway, I promise not to use the no true Scotsman on you. If a person persistently identifies as something, I'll assume they are that something.

I really appreciate the name of this thread, some of the ideas mentioned here have indeed been quite strange.

Samarkand, your passive aggressiveness befuddles me. Why don't you make an actual argument?

[LordBucket]

LordBucket; the analogy is not, properly, a pendulum. It is a spring-coiled tube. There is innate resistance to equality from sources
outside of the specific battleground, and there are people pushing down. To get it high enough, we have to push back.

What is your criteria by which you judge when it's time to stop pushing?

A few examples:

 * More women are accepted into college than men
 * More women graduate with degrees
 * Women usually win child custody battles
 * Women control the majority of money in the US source 1 source 2 source 3 source 4 source 5
 * Women live longer than men, yet despite this the majority of healthcare money is spent on women, and for example, more than twice as much money is spent on breast cancer vs prostrate cancer research, despite similar numbers of afflicted.

Meanwhile:
 * Men are 12 times more likely to die on the job
 * Men are twice as likely to be homeless
 * Men are three times as likely to commit suicide

...but, oh. There are more men in politics. And more male CEO's. And median male income is still higher than women's. Oh, apparently even that's starting to change:

"In 2008, single, childless women between ages 22 and 30 were earning more than their male counterparts in most U.S. cities, with incomes that were 8% greater on average, "

So is your goal to keep pushing until everything favors women over men? Is that equality? After all, even though female CEO's make 40% more than male CEOs, there are still more male CEO's than female CEO's. Shall we keep pushing until they not only get paid more, there are also more of them too?

Or maybe what you want is social equality? Why not go to a bar with a female friend and see which of the two of you gets more free drink purchased for you. Or have your car break down on the side of the road and see which of you receives more offers of help. Try being a male or female assaulted by someone of the opposite gender and see who garners more sympathy. Go to the mall and do a quick count of how many stores cater to women vs cater to men. Have a female friend wear a boys are stupid throw rocks at them t-shirt, and then try custom printing a "girls are stupid throw rocks at them" t-shirt and wearing it and let us know who people are nicer to. Imagine a man and woman on a sinking ship competing for the last spot on a liferaft and tell me who gets it.


I ask again: what is your criteria by which to judge when it's time to stop pushing for women's "equality?"

[Angle]

Yes, those are true, but I would blame them more on the attitudes of men than on women or feminism. Really, we men need a movement to reevaluate our gender constraints, and slip them, if necessary. For example, men have a lot of cultural restriction on being feminine, even when that's to their advantage. This can severely impede our ability to function in society. Women, on the underhand, have significantly slipped their restriction from acting masculine. This, I feel, largely accounts for women's better performance in school and professionally. As for medicine, women have gone and campaigned for better treatment. Men? Nope can't do that, it's not macho. I do agree that the funding is unbalanced, but you can hardly blame women for that.

[Orange Wizard]

Hello, everyone!
I would like to apologise for any and all of the stupid things I have said on this thread.
It is an interesting topic, so I will continue to follow it and may contribute in future. I will, however, think a little bit more before posting, and with any luck I'll look like less of an arse than I have thus far.

[Samarkand]

Hello, everyone!
I would like to apologise for any and all of the stupid things I have said on this thread.
It is an interesting topic, so I will continue to follow it and may contribute in future. I will, however, think a little bit more before posting, and with any luck I'll look like less of an arse than I have thus far.

I love bay12. Thank you insanity, for a wonderful example of rational discussion being able to influence people's behavior.

[Rolepgeek]

Speaking of rational discussion, I really hope someone else responds to LordBucket's post because it has caused such great levels of anger within me that if I have to be the one to show him how wrong he is, I don't know how civil I'll be able to keep it. Logical, I think I can manage, I just worry about the whole bloody thing getting deleted by Toady because I can't keep my temper.

I don't get angry easily. These issues are some of the few things that do. Congratulations, LordBucket. You've been added to the list of maybe five people who've managed to make me this mad. Two of the others did so by causing me physical harm. Congratulations.

[Angle]

Hello, everyone!
I would like to apologise for any and all of the stupid things I have said on this thread.
It is an interesting topic, so I will continue to follow it and may contribute in future. I will, however, think a little bit more before posting, and with any luck I'll look like less of an arse than I have thus far.

Eh, they weren't that stupid- this is the internet, you're not even eligible to register for that race. 

I look forward to your future contributions.

[Samarkand]

Speaking of rational discussion, I really hope someone else responds to LordBucket's post because it has caused such great levels of anger within me that if I have to be the one to show him how wrong he is, I don't know how civil I'll be able to keep it. Logical, I think I can manage, I just worry about the whole bloody thing getting deleted by Toady because I can't keep my temper.

I don't get angry easily. These issues are some of the few things that do. Congratulations, LordBucket. You've been added to the list of maybe five people who've managed to make me this mad. Two of the others did so by causing me physical harm. Congratulations.

I was just gonna let that one get buried.

Hello, everyone!
I would like to apologise for any and all of the stupid things I have said on this thread.
It is an interesting topic, so I will continue to follow it and may contribute in future. I will, however, think a little bit more before posting, and with any luck I'll look like less of an arse than I have thus far.

Eh, they weren't that stupid- this is the internet, you're not even eligible to register for that race.

I look forward to your future contributions.

Also true.

[Angle]

Speaking of rational discussion, I really hope someone else responds to LordBucket's post because it has caused such great levels of anger within me that if I have to be the one to show him how wrong he is, I don't know how civil I'll be able to keep it. Logical, I think I can manage, I just worry about the whole bloody thing getting deleted by Toady because I can't keep my temper.

I don't get angry easily. These issues are some of the few things that do. Congratulations, LordBucket. You've been added to the list of maybe five people who've managed to make me this mad. Two of the others did so by causing me physical harm. Congratulations.

Lemme take another crack at it. I posted once, but I think I rather missed the point.

So is your goal to keep pushing until everything favors women over men?

First, this isn't a zero-sum game. We've been working to remove the things that disadvantage women. If you're concerned about men being disadvantaged, you can go and tackle those problems yourself. Here's an example of a person who tries to do just that.

Or maybe what you want is social equality? Why not go to a bar with a female friend and see which of the two of you gets more free drink purchased for you. Or have your car break down on the side of the road and see which of you receives more offers of help. Try being a male or female assaulted by someone of the opposite gender and see who garners more sympathy. Go to the mall and do a quick count of how many stores cater to women vs cater to men. Have a female friend wear a boys are stupid throw rocks at them t-shirt, and then try custom printing a "girls are stupid throw rocks at them" t-shirt and wearing it and let us know who people are nicer to. Imagine a man and woman on a sinking ship competing for the last spot on a liferaft and tell me who gets it.

Those are rather poor examples. Try going to any social event and see which one of you get's more unwelcome advances. See who's more likely to get molested. For that matter, try comparing old unattractive men and women, and see who comes out ahead in those examples above.

[TD1]

I do agree that there is a limit to how far you can push "Equality" without it becoming inequality. Whether or not that point has been reached is debatable, of course, but it is there.

[Neonivek]

Yes, those are true, but I would blame them more on the attitudes of men than on women or feminism.

Dang blameless women and their ability not to contribute to society! (joke)

I always find it funny when people essentially transpose women out of society in these discussions and give them perfectly progressive minds.

Yeah because no women put pressure on women to succeed more and if they do it is because a man told them. *sarcasm*

[Reelya]

Speaking of rational discussion, I really hope someone else responds to LordBucket's post because it has caused such great levels of anger within me that if I have to be the one to show him how wrong he is, I don't know how civil I'll be able to keep it. Logical, I think I can manage, I just worry about the whole bloody thing getting deleted by Toady because I can't keep my temper.

I don't get angry easily. These issues are some of the few things that do. Congratulations, LordBucket. You've been added to the list of maybe five people who've managed to make me this mad. Two of the others did so by causing me physical harm. Congratulations.

All of what he wrote are true things, the logical error was to link them to feminism.

Although, women live longer is a fact, as is women's health gets much more attention and funding. It doesn't matter WHY that is, it's still a bias.

Women advocated more for more health funding, so it's fair? Let's apply that logic to the wage gap then. Tons of studies show men are more proactive in asking for pay raises and promotions. If the health funding thing is fair because women fought for it, then so is the pay gap.

[Samarkand]

I do agree that there is a limit to how far you can push "Equality" without it becoming inequality. Whether or not that point has been reached is debatable, of course, but it is there.

When you use quotations around equality you mean the word empowerment. It's important to keep words straight as best we can, so we can find common ground. For example, I think most everyone here will agree that equality is good, and those who don't will likely offer very interesting reasons (Nietzsche is a fun one to read on that... Though clearly not a feminist). If we clarify that what we disagree about is current empowerment efforts, nobody needs to defend equality, they just need to demonstrate further empowerment is needed.

Speaking of rational discussion, I really hope someone else responds to LordBucket's post because it has caused such great levels of anger within me that if I have to be the one to show him how wrong he is, I don't know how civil I'll be able to keep it. Logical, I think I can manage, I just worry about the whole bloody thing getting deleted by Toady because I can't keep my temper.

I don't get angry easily. These issues are some of the few things that do. Congratulations, LordBucket. You've been added to the list of maybe five people who've managed to make me this mad. Two of the others did so by causing me physical harm. Congratulations.

Al of what he wrote are true things, the logical error was to link them to feminism.

And some of them are actually resulting in accepting men over women, particularly in certain academic fields. There aren't enough men applying to Psychology Ph.D. programs. There aren't enough women applying to Physics Ph.D. programs. I think feminism can help solve both of these by deconstructing commonly understood gender roles and allowing people to pursue fields that interest them equally, as opposed to many young women being discouraged from doing things related to engineering, and young men being mocked for getting involved in a soft science. That deconstruction is the part that I find most fascinating about feminism.

[TD1]

Eh, the quotation marks were because it wouldn't be true equality. Is in, they'd call it equality, but it wouldn't be. That's when you push too far, and exceed the limit.