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[palu]

For all you saying "what" about my comment.

my saying "DF 2014 is essentially DF 2012 modded"  is broken down in logic as follows:

(large amounts of justifications cut out)

When the actual developer updates a game's source code, that is not a "mod".  That is a new version.  "Mods" are things that a game's community of players generate.

All the justifications and defensive rationalizations in the world do not change that simple point.

^^This. Right here. Even if toady made an update wich was only raw changes. It wouldn't be a mod. Similarly, if some modder somehow changed the games source code, it would still be a mod. It's the developer. Stuff made by Toady is never a mod. Everything else is.

EDIT: Why am I even doing this? I should be playing DF2014! Is there any way to unwatch a thread?

[GavJ]

This is also pretty wrong, since the plant raws were overhauled with the release, which is impossible with modding.

Yes.

It's clearly "impossible" to make a post on the modding forum saying "Hey guys, here are some new plant raws and this is what the different tags do. Go crazy. I'll pick out my favorites in a couple months, do some cursory testing of them, and put them in the release. I'm gonna go work on core code and/or modding frameworks some more."

Toady might just find it fun to make trees. And that's fine. I didn't pay for the game. But I'm just saying it is less efficient than spending that same time making more raws, or other core changes, or whatever.  As a suggestion.

[Putnam]

Parts of an update being moddable doesn't mean the whole thing is moddable.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Parts of an update being moddable doesn't mean the whole thing is moddable.

Dwarf Fortress is just a mod to Slaves of Armok. Bring back the 2004-2005 era development cycle! Jesus, if Toady did that the OP would riot with the lack of tangible progress..

[thvaz]

This is also pretty wrong, since the plant raws were overhauled with the release, which is impossible with modding.

Yes.

It's clearly "impossible" to make a post on the modding forum saying "Hey guys, here are some new plant raws and this is what the different tags do. Go crazy. I'll pick out my favorites in a couple months, do some cursory testing of them, and put them in the release. I'm gonna go work on core code and/or modding frameworks some more."

Toady might just find it fun to make trees. And that's fine. I didn't pay for the game. But I'm just saying it is less efficient than spending that same time making more raws, or other core changes, or whatever.  As a suggestion.

And then one of the modders sue him to oblivion.

[Footkerchief]

Okay

Not seeing how those support your argument.  Abalieno says "Toady should work more with them" and "Toady needs to work more directly with those who are developing graphic modes" (emphasis mine).  Abalieno knows that Toady already does those things to some extent.  S/he's just saying that Toady should do it more.

I'm bewildered by people's eagerness to distort and misread the OP's words.

Abalieno also explicitly said "make branches" in relation to Dwarf Fortress, which certainly isn't being misrepresented.

Here's the quote:

You overestimate the will to code of most people. Also that would fracture the fan base, provoke fights and would be basically the end of DF.

Make branches. Cataclysm is an example of a game that got out of his original dev hands and HUGELY IMPROVED because of it.

Toady is not replaceable, but he also does stupid things and the nature of close source has hampered a lot of what the game could deliver. Even if it DF stays closed source it needs to make bigger strides as it did when it got to SDL. Toady needs to work more directly with those who are developing graphic modes, and he needs to work NOW on detaching the game mechanics from the UI layer, so that they can part ways.

Why we still have text screens with bits of graphic in them? Why we still have text screen that take the whole space and screens that instead stay in a small square? Why I cant "look around" at tiles with the mouse?

It's (way past) time Toady focus on this stuff.

In context, "make branches" seems to mean "open-source the game so it can be forked".  If you had Kobold Camp / SDL in mind, those involved a comparatively tiny amount of code-sharing.

[miauw62]

And this entire discussion derailed because a guy said that he liked vanilla DF and then everyone interpreted it as him HATING MODS WITH A FURIOUS RAGE out of principle.
I am against including mods in vanilla simply because mods are supposed to be optional. And I don't care about your HARDCORE LOGIC, really. If Toady thinks it's good enough to include in the base game, it's probably a pretty damn good mod that makes the game more like he thinks it should be.

[GavJ]

And then one of the modders sue him to oblivion.

I'm not talking about running around stealing stuff from people's mods all over the place without asking. I'm talking about specific requests for (uncompensated) input in specific threads for doing so.
If for some stupid reason in America, that's still sue-able due to legal nuances over my head, then okay fine. He has to make his own trees. Was just an idea for a way to save some effort *shrug*

Regardless, doesn't change the primary suggestion of spending more time on modding framework and less time on one-off features (until the framework is largely done to the extent it can be in the form of the very clever raw system - which is a project with a finite scope to it, not just never ending)

[Zeranamu]

(in response to some of the more strident comments, we should keep in mind that it's best to allow a spirit of calm to pervade us before we post, so that threads can remain intact and stuff)

Zen the Toad.

[Henman]

And this entire discussion derailed because a guy said that he liked vanilla DF and then everyone interpreted it as him HATING MODS WITH A FURIOUS RAGE out of principle.

Not really, but anyways, if you think that's where this thread went off the deep end, you haven't read the entire thing.

[miauw62]

It appeared to have went off the deep end a bit before, but to me it appeared the discussion has derailed in new and exciting directions because of your comment (No offense intended)

[Footkerchief]

If for some stupid reason in America, that's still sue-able due to legal nuances over my head, then okay fine. He has to make his own trees. Was just an idea for a way to save some effort *shrug*

Regardless, doesn't change the primary suggestion of spending more time on modding framework and less time on one-off features (until the framework is largely done to the extent it can be in the form of the very clever raw system - which is a project with a finite scope to it, not just never ending)

One of the primary reasons Toady added trees himself was that he needed to test that framework before releasing it.

[Evaris]

This is still wrong. It's not just "changes and additions", it's changes and additions that are impossible to do with modding and change the entire core of the game.

Correction: some of them are core changes to the game, and impossible with modding. Toady sitting there for however many hours research crops and tree types and then implementing them using an already-Raw system is not changing the core of the game, for example.

and Clarification: Changing the core of a game is not inherently more fun than using an API to change the game within parameters. Especially if the API is beefed up and reaches almost to the very central core of the game.

Also want to point out that in many games, mods do also in fact change the core of the game. Minecraft being an example again. People go change the original binaries quite frequently, without an official API or support. These are still considered "mods" The only qualification on the term is usually "not the official company doing it," nothing more. Which again, is not any inherently more or less fun content.

This has been my stance. 

Again I'm aware of what can't be done with mods since the core code isn't available to modders.  But changes implemented here could have similar amounts of change in other games where core code is more accessible, e.g. minecraft and skyrim as examples.

(in response to some of the more strident comments, we should keep in mind that it's best to allow a spirit of calm to pervade us before we post, so that threads can remain intact and stuff)

I apologize should any of my comments have been out of line - I do hope my posts have been able to show my viewpoint without expressing negativity. 

[Henman]

It appeared to have went off the deep end a bit before, but to me it appeared the discussion has derailed in new and exciting directions because of your comment (No offense intended)

Someone asked if anyone actually played vanilla! Blame them, not me!

[miauw62]

Again I'm aware of what can't be done with mods since the core code isn't available to modders.  But changes implemented here could have similar amounts of change in other games where core code is more accessible, e.g. minecraft and skyrim as examples.

Skyrim source code is not accessible. It's just designed with modding in mind since that has been Betheseda's modus operandi for quite a while.