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[Putnam]

If you guys are still looking for someone who enjoys DF with no mods, I'm right here.

DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012

What.

I am pretty sure you fully understand what Evaris is saying.  DF 2014 is Df 2012 with Toady modifying the code to add and change stuff to be more fun.

That's stretching the definition of "mod" as it relates to DF a lot.

Mods made by players from the last version are also DF 2012 with those players modifying the code to add and change stuff to be more fun.

No, they modify the raws. The features in 0.40.01 could not be done in any way by modding at all. It is not a mod, it is an update to the game. You cannot add new tokens with modding. You cannot add multi-tile trees with modding. You cannot activate the world with modding. Calling 0.40.01 a mod of 0.34.11 is so completely wrong I cannot in any reasonable amount of time describe it sufficiently.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

You're trying to miss my point or something. Abalieno is the one who is completely unaware of DFHack/Dwarf Therapist and it's development to claim that Toady doesn't work actively with modders or open certain code up to certain 3rd parties. Read the posts you're defending. I'm tired of this rehashed argument over and over. What Bortness said. These people come and go.

It might help if you quoted the parts of Abalieno's posts that support your argument.  It's hard to tell the difference between paraphrasing and a strawman.

Things aren't as bad as you describe; DFHack can do pretty amazing things these days. And the community is pretty strong, developing all kinds of third party tools to increase your DF experience I'm sure we'll have a 3D overlay renderer before the version 1 comes out.

Yes, my point is that Toady should work more with them instead of against them. This stuff has to make into the game, not hacked into it.

Toady needs to work on methods to give stuff like Dwarf Therapist access to data, not hack into that.

That's, like, very untrue.

It's an exaggeration.

The point is: stone colors is the most significant thing you have on screen at all times. Yet it's completely irrelevant gameplay-wise. So there's a huge disconnect between utility and presentation.

You overestimate the will to code of most people. Also that would fracture the fan base, provoke fights and would be basically the end of DF.

Make branches. Cataclysm is an example of a game that got out of his original dev hands and HUGELY IMPROVED because of it.

Toady is not replaceable, but he also does stupid things and the nature of close source has hampered a lot of what the game could deliver. Even if it DF stays closed source it needs to make bigger strides as it did when it got to SDL. Toady needs to work more directly with those who are developing graphic modes, and he needs to work NOW on detaching the game mechanics from the UI layer, so that they can part ways.

Why we still have text screens with bits of graphic in them? Why we still have text screen that take the whole space and screens that instead stay in a small square? Why I cant "look around" at tiles with the mouse?

It's (way past) time Toady focus on this stuff.

And finally, you don't really specify what you would like development to look like, practically

I think I've been explicit enough.

Better relationship with mods, or more coordinated effort. This means giving them access to preliminary releases, as well integrating the stuff that you can find in DFhack, for example. The stuff that FIXES things, not the stuff that arbitrarily changes the game. Toady should work with them, talk with them and so on.

In the "Text Will Be Text - dfhack plugin" for example you can read:

I had a discussion with lxnt, baughn and Toady, and later on another with Taffer, Baughn and Toady. Baughn would like to update the graphics significantly, but cant work without source access. Toady understands this, but wont give this access. (which is perfectly within his right to do)

So a graphic engine update is most likely not going to happen any time soon.

So what I ask Toady isn't about going open source, but at least to reconsider these positions.

There was a time when he made significant progress in this direction. Then he stopped. I'm simply asking he goes back opening up the UI layer of the game (since it looks like Toady just won't do it by himself).

That was one aspect. The other aspect is that after two years of radical rewrites I hope he puts that kind of strategy on a similar year-or-two delay, so that the next couple of years are more focused on those features I defined "small things that have significant impact compared to significant things that make little difference."

Okay

[Bortness]

So basically this dude wants to reframe the project that Toady has dedicated his life to and works tirelessly on to realize, to the great, free benefit of a huge number of diehard strategy gamers.  He wants to do this because he thinks he has a better idea, and writes this huge bit of text to essentially (and not very nicely) demand that Toady do it the way that OP wants.

To that I say: dude, go write your own damn game.  Then you can do anything you want with it.  But get off Toady's back - Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today.  And you're going to bitch at him about this junk?

Again: make your own.  Period.

The Suggestions forum and the bug tracker exist because Toady is interested in people's feedback.  Your "make your own" argument could be leveled against any feedback.  Whether Abalieno is making a game has no bearing on the validity of his/her criticisms.

Also, the OP has been markedly more civil and humble than the people arguing against him/her.  Everyone, please stop flaming.  It's bad for you, bad for me, bad for Toady, bad for this discussion, and bad for the game.

He's not offering anything constructive.  He's bitching about wanting to go back in time.  He can download the old versions all he wants.
Constructive criticism != bitching

[GavJ]

Does Toady need to make sure every mod works before releasing a new version?

No, that's not how mods work for any game.

It's the modder's job to make sure their mod works smoothly, and if you use a mod and it crashes, it does not reflect poorly on Toady, it reflects poorly on the modder. His only contribution to mods is a modding framework, which is a part time gig and most of the time he's still working on his own direct content.

That's stretching the definition of "mod" as it relates to DF a lot.

Evaris (I think) and I aren't literally calling it a mod. We are pointing out that the benefit and overall effect on a player is for all practical purposes the same. When deciding where to put coding effort, a feature is a feature. It should be judged by how fun it is, not by who wrote it. And Toady making a framework = bunch of people can now make a whole bunch of features. Toady making a feature = 1 feature.

It's very unlikely that Toady's 1 feature will somehow end up more broadly appealing and more fun all by itself than any combination of all the features modders could have made with a framework instead in the same amount of time.

[Evaris]

For all you saying "what" about my comment.

my saying "DF 2014 is essentially DF 2012 modded"  is broken down in logic as follows:

-most of the changes to the game which are visible are just that - changes and additions.  Much as is seen is the same, and core gameplay is largely unchanged from previous versions, although there are visible differences and changes, just the same as with many fan mods, albeit in not to such an extent.  Thus, it is not a stretch in my opinion whatsoever to compare the game update to any 3rd party developed mod.  While I am aware that underlying code was changed drastically, this does not change that the difference on-screen is no different from mods seen in other games as far as additions to the world are concerned.   

That said, do you prefer DF 2012 or DF 2014? 

Thus far I prefer DF 2012, mostly because I am used to it and its less crashy. Also my framerate isn't shit on it. I think tilesets make everything look muddled and its hard to tell what specific things are (I guess that wouldn't be a problem as much if I got used to a single one).

I have nothing against mods, but when people say they should be included in the game, that makes me ask who is going to be responsible for including them? Does Toady need to make sure every mod works before releasing a new version? Does Toady send out early copies of the game to modmakers so they can make sure they're compatible before he releases?

See I think ASCII makes everything look muddled and hard to tell what things are, but that is something which will vary from person to person, hence my wanting an option for pick-and-choose graphics at a button press.  As for mod inclusion, those concerns aren't really valid for the majority of mods.  Mods which would only change RAWs, take mine for example, would be unlikely to have bugs in them if Toady were to pick and choose implementations.  Most tileset mods only require access to the RAWs as things are added/changed - thus the tileset might only need amendment if something new was added in a version which would require a new tile be added, or a creature be added, which could have an in-term solution, or a list of creature/monster additions could be added as a spoiler in advance and tileset makers could send in their edited tileset for the package that would let people pick/choose via button. 

[Henman]

No, that's not how mods work for any game.

Right, but what I'm talking about is including the mods in the game, which isn't what other games do either.

[Bortness]

For all you saying "what" about my comment.

my saying "DF 2014 is essentially DF 2012 modded"  is broken down in logic as follows:

(large amounts of justifications cut out)

When the actual developer updates a game's source code, that is not a "mod".  That is a new version.  "Mods" are things that a game's community of players generate.

All the justifications and defensive rationalizations in the world do not change that simple point.

[Bortness]

Seriously, using this "mod" logic, one could argue that the entirety of Dwarf Fortress is nothing more than a modified "hello world" program.
Meh.

[GavJ]

No, that's not how mods work for any game.

Right, but what I'm talking about is including the mods in the game, which isn't what other games do either.

Perhaps there is a miscommunication here. I don't think anybody is talking about including mods in the game as released. We are talking about modding support - I.e. making it easier and more possible to make mods for graphics and for gameplay. Modding tools, in other words. No individual player mod needs to be included with the game, nor do I think it should be.

As for including modding tools? Sure other games do that all the time. Probably mroe often than not for this genre.
Notch, for example, works with the people who make the Bukkit mod API for minecraft all the time. In fact, I think he even hired some of them.
And the Skyrim folks released their entire level making editor, as another example. And provided video tutorials on how to use it.

[Putnam]

-most of the changes to the game which are visible are just that - changes and additions.  Much as is seen is the same, and core gameplay is largely unchanged from previous versions, although there are visible differences and changes, just the same as with many fan mods, albeit in not to such an extent.  Thus, it is not a stretch in my opinion whatsoever to compare the game update to any 3rd party developed mod.  While I am aware that underlying code was changed drastically, this does not change that the difference on-screen is no different from mods seen in other games as far as additions to the world are concerned.   

This is still wrong. It's not just "changes and additions", it's changes and additions that are impossible to do with modding and change the entire core of the game. It's a gigantic stretch. It's like saying that Portal is just a mod of Half-Life 2. You're understating the changes in this release massively. Multi-tile trees are big. Complete combat overhaul is pretty big. Activation of the world is the biggest thing that has ever happened in DF development past, present or future and calling it a "mod" is understating it more than anything else can be understating. It's also wrong for reasons I've already said.

Seriously, using this "mod" logic, one could argue that the entirety of Dwarf Fortress is nothing more than a modified "hello world" program.
Meh.

This is true as well.

[Footkerchief]

Okay

Not seeing how those support your argument.  Abalieno says "Toady should work more with them" and "Toady needs to work more directly with those who are developing graphic modes" (emphasis mine).  Abalieno knows that Toady already does those things to some extent.  S/he's just saying that Toady should do it more.

I'm bewildered by people's eagerness to distort the OP's words.

[GavJ]

This is still wrong. It's not just "changes and additions", it's changes and additions that are impossible to do with modding and change the entire core of the game.

Correction: some of them are core changes to the game, and impossible with modding. Toady sitting there for however many hours research crops and tree types and then implementing them using an already-Raw system is not changing the core of the game, for example.

and Clarification: Changing the core of a game is not inherently more fun than using an API to change the game within parameters. Especially if the API is beefed up and reaches almost to the very central core of the game.

Also want to point out that in many games, mods do also in fact change the core of the game. Minecraft being an example again. People go change the original binaries quite frequently, without an official API or support. These are still considered "mods" The only qualification on the term is usually "not the official company doing it," nothing more. Which again, is not any inherently more or less fun content.

[Putnam]

Okay

Not seeing how those support your argument.  Abalieno says "Toady should work more with them" and "Toady needs to work more directly with those who are developing graphic modes" (emphasis mine).  Abalieno knows that Toady already does those things to some extent.  S/he's just saying that Toady should do it more.

I'm bewildered by people's eagerness to distort and misread the OP's words.

Abalieno also explicitly said "make branches" in relation to Dwarf Fortress, which certainly isn't being misrepresented.

This is still wrong. It's not just "changes and additions", it's changes and additions that are impossible to do with modding and change the entire core of the game.

Correction: a few of them are core changes to the game, and impossible with modding. Toady sitting there for however many hours research crops and tree types and then implementing them using an already-Raw system is not changing the core of the game, for example.

and Clarification: Changing the core of a game is not inherently more fun than using an API to change the game within parameters. Especially if the API is beefed up and reaches almost to the very central core of the game.

This is also pretty wrong, since the plant raws were overhauled with the release, which is impossible with modding.

[Henman]

Perhaps there is a miscommunication here.

I understand if you don't want to use mods which change graphics, or you prefer some features not be included, or perhaps you like how things are now, or preferred a previous version of DF hack - if that's the case, great.  But Otherwise those who are against mods becoming part of the game, or implementations creating the same functionality in the main release in the future, just don't make sense to me, to be honest. 

This is the source of my confusion. Evaris, were you referring to including mods in the game as released?

 For the record, I do like the idea of a simple option to switch tilesets, as long as it doesn't interfere with development much.

[Toady One]

(in response to some of the more strident comments, we should keep in mind that it's best to allow a spirit of calm to pervade us before we post, so that threads can remain intact and stuff)