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Author Topic: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress  (Read 51384 times)

GavJ

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #135 on: July 09, 2014, 10:59:07 am »

It's not that vanilla isn't fun. It's that DF can get more fun more quickly and efficienrly with modding support hours spent than with direct feature hours spent.

What's fun for you is not necessarily fun for everyone else.  There can't be much of a conversation unless you accept this.

No, that is PRECISELY why mods are so efficient, not the other way around... Toady can direct implement features that will be fun for some and not fun for others.
Or Toady can spend the same amount of time in modding support, and in the same amount of time, you'll get 17 mods that are custom tailored to be fun for every walk and color of player, even small minorities. And many players will have several mods that are all fun to them.

And with the level of support of a GUI module and full raws, each of those mods could easily be as fresh feeling and game changing as Toady's own "expansion packs" are.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:01:37 am by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Henny

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #136 on: July 09, 2014, 11:00:26 am »

The idea that everything needs to be functionally distinct is incredibly redunctionistic to me, an argument that I never have much sympathy for. Just because you have five metals that are very similar in function and properties doesn't mean it's utterly useless to have them all. Looking at the Real World™, you'll find a startling lack of reductionism in many things. It's also interesting that people think the only "worthwhile" attributes are the pragmatic ones, and that the aesthetic ones are meaningless.
There should only be three types of chairs in The Sims: one shitty but cheap chair, one mediocre chair and one decadent chair. Anything else is just detracting from gameplay.
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Bortness

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #137 on: July 09, 2014, 11:03:16 am »

So basically this dude wants to reframe the project that Toady has dedicated his life to and works tirelessly on to realize, to the great, free benefit of a huge number of diehard strategy gamers.  He wants to do this because he thinks he has a better idea, and writes this huge bit of text to essentially (and not very nicely) demand that Toady do it the way that OP wants.

To that I say: dude, go write your own damn game.  Then you can do anything you want with it.  But get off Toady's back - Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today.  And you're going to bitch at him about this junk?

Again: make your own.  Period.
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Evaris

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #138 on: July 09, 2014, 11:07:00 am »

If you guys are still looking for someone who enjoys DF with no mods, I'm right here.



That said, do you prefer DF 2012 or DF 2014?  Because DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012, just by the creator.  Also do you truly prefer ASCII to any sort of tileset?  Curious on that point. 

I mean, I -enjoy- DF without mods, but my personal stance is mods improve it.  I know having specific tiles for creatures adds a lot to everything for me, instead of being forced to look at every tile to check on if something is livestock or an invader. 
That point aside, I also enjoy tilesets for being overall more pleasing to my eye, though that is going to be something that varies from person to person, hence why I like mods which add in the ability to change tilesets (including ASCII tilesets) at the click of a button.

And then there is things like my mod, Orichalcum, which I made because I saw things that could be done via RAWs to expand the game within Toady's stated dwarven tech level (human cultures up to 14th century in our world)  which means things are added like cupronickel (copper-nickel alloy, stronger than bronze, used by Greeks, Romans, and 1st century BC Chinese in weapons/armor and decorations.  Probably known as Orichalcum by the Greeks/Romans and was known as white copper by the Chinese, who used it well through the 15th century AD.)  Iron from red sand, as most red sands are made up of iron oxide, and can be smelted and refined using a flux material, something done in many island cultures, most notably Japan for the vast majority of their iron production.  Or Hand-cannons, which can be dated back to the 13th century Europe and 12th century china. 
Given these and other things I've just seen a lot which makes sense to be in the game which aren't, so.... I added them.  Toady has even said he plans to add things like hand-cannons in the future, though I'm not sure as to why he hasn't.   

So... really there is a large question in my mind as to why some people react so negatively about mods, or say they shouldn't be included, even when some mods are just things the modding community has created to bring objects of stated goals into the game in advance, or to expand the options players have - not that you have to use them, but they are available. 

I understand if you don't want to use mods which change graphics, or you prefer some features not be included, or perhaps you like how things are now, or preferred a previous version of DF hack - if that's the case, great.  But Otherwise those who are against mods becoming part of the game, or implementations creating the same functionality in the main release in the future, just don't make sense to me, to be honest. 

So regardless - what I'd like to see is both the march of progress Toady is doing as usual, but also incorporate a UI similar to the starter pack which allows tilesets to be changed at the click of a button - perhaps an official graphical tileset to be included alongside the ASCII or multiple popular ones from mods - and perhaps more openness on the graphics and GUI side of things, though that may be asking too much given Toady's past statements and actions.
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Orichalcum Dwarf Fortress: An expansion mod giving extra realistic options to many un-and-underused materials in game.  [currently out of date, may be revived in the future]

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #139 on: July 09, 2014, 11:07:42 am »

I don't see any evidence that Abalieno "claims Toady is hostile to 3rd parties" or "is completely unaware of the development of things like DFHack".

You're trying to miss my point or something. Abalieno is the one who is completely unaware of DFHack/Dwarf Therapist and it's development to claim that Toady doesn't work actively with modders or open certain code up to certain 3rd parties. Read the posts you're defending. I'm tired of this rehashed argument over and over. What Bortness said. These people come and go.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:11:18 am by Mictlantecuhtli »
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
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GavJ

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #140 on: July 09, 2014, 11:11:00 am »

Quote
Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today.
Intelligent, yes.
Nice guy, yes.
Selfless? Not following you.

He went into game design because game design makes him happy. That's not selfless. And by catering to the whims of players versus just working in his basement for 25 years without sharing any code, he gets more donations and free bug testing. Not seeing how that's selfless, either.

I'm sure he also has fun in the meantime interacting with us most of the time, but it's at best neutral, or leaning toward self serving overall. Which is fine, not knocking him at all for that. I would do the same system if I were him. Merely disagreeing with your assessment. We give him things - donations, bug testing.  Asking for stuff in return is quite reasonable. It's not like we are suing him for those things. We are asking.

Quote
That said, do you prefer DF 2012 or DF 2014?  Because DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012, just by the creator.
That is an excellent way of putting it, thank you.

This.  One mod? Or 25? In the same amount of time? (after which he goes back to doing his own mods full time, they aren't mutually exclusive. Just a brief interlude)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:13:05 am by GavJ »
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Putnam

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #141 on: July 09, 2014, 11:11:32 am »

If you guys are still looking for someone who enjoys DF with no mods, I'm right here.
DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012

What.

thatnewguy

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2014, 11:11:49 am »

(a spirit of relaxation and general calmness has replaced this post)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:40:54 am by Toady One »
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Witty

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #143 on: July 09, 2014, 11:13:02 am »

And it should be noted that DF is largely determined by what Toady finds fun.
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Quote from: Toady One
I understand that it is disappointing when a dwarf makes a spiked loincloth instead of an axe.

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #144 on: July 09, 2014, 11:13:59 am »

Quote
Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today.
Intelligent, yes.
Nice guy, yes.
Selfless? Not following you.

He went into game design because game design makes him happy. That's not selfless. And by catering to the whims of players versus just working in his basement for 25 years without sharing any code, he gets more donations and free bug testing. Not seeing how that's selfless, either.

I'm sure he also has fun in the meantime interacting with us most of the time, but it's at best neutral, or leaning toward self serving overall. Which is fine, not knocking him at all for that. I would do the same system if I were him. Merely disagreeing with your assessment. We give him things - donations, bug testing.  Asking for stuff in return is quite reasonable.

Quote
That said, do you prefer DF 2012 or DF 2014?  Because DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012, just by the creator.
That is an excellent way of putting it, thank you.

This.  One mod? Or 25? In the same amount of time? (after which he goes back to doing his own mods full time, they aren't mutually exclusive. Just a brief interlude)

I'm going to have to paraphrase Putnam here and say 'What?'
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

thatnewguy

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #145 on: July 09, 2014, 11:14:27 am »

Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today. 

>selfless
topkek
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GavJ

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #146 on: July 09, 2014, 11:15:30 am »

If you guys are still looking for someone who enjoys DF with no mods, I'm right here.
DF 2014 is a modded DF 2012

What.

I am pretty sure you fully understand what Evaris is saying.  DF 2014 is Df 2012 with Toady modifying the code to add and change stuff to be more fun.
Mods made by players from the last version are also DF 2012 with those players modifying the code to add and change stuff to be more fun.

If you enjoy version releases, it doesn't make much sense to say you don't enjoy mods on principle. Perhaps you don't enjoy those specific mods, but it stands to logic that the main reason for that is the extent to which modders' hands are tied. So... untie them. Although I'm suggesting a more moderate route for doing so than open source.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

Footkerchief

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #147 on: July 09, 2014, 11:17:57 am »

You're trying to miss my point or something. Abalieno is the one who is completely unaware of DFHack/Dwarf Therapist and it's development to claim that Toady doesn't work actively with modders or open certain code up to certain 3rd parties. Read the posts you're defending. I'm tired of this rehashed argument over and over. What Bortness said. These people come and go.

It might help if you quoted the parts of Abalieno's posts that support your argument.  It's hard to tell the difference between paraphrasing and a strawman.

So basically this dude wants to reframe the project that Toady has dedicated his life to and works tirelessly on to realize, to the great, free benefit of a huge number of diehard strategy gamers.  He wants to do this because he thinks he has a better idea, and writes this huge bit of text to essentially (and not very nicely) demand that Toady do it the way that OP wants.

To that I say: dude, go write your own damn game.  Then you can do anything you want with it.  But get off Toady's back - Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today.  And you're going to bitch at him about this junk?

Again: make your own.  Period.

The Suggestions forum and the bug tracker exist because Toady is interested in people's feedback.  Your "make your own" argument could be leveled against any feedback.  Whether Abalieno is making a game has no bearing on the validity of his/her criticisms.

Also, the OP has been markedly more civil and humble than the people arguing against him/her.  Everyone, please stop flaming.  It's bad for you, bad for me, bad for Toady, bad for this discussion, and bad for the game.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:20:28 am by Footkerchief »
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Henman

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #148 on: July 09, 2014, 11:19:14 am »



That said, do you prefer DF 2012 or DF 2014? 

Thus far I prefer DF 2012, mostly because I am used to it and its less crashy. Also my framerate isn't shit on it. I think tilesets make everything look muddled and its hard to tell what specific things are (I guess that wouldn't be a problem as much if I got used to a single one).

I have nothing against mods, but when people say they should be included in the game, that makes me ask who is going to be responsible for including them? Does Toady need to make sure every mod works before releasing a new version? Does Toady send out early copies of the game to modmakers so they can make sure they're compatible before he releases?
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Bortness

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Re: Toady, a little rant on modern Dwarf Fortress
« Reply #149 on: July 09, 2014, 11:22:22 am »

Toady is very clearly one of the most intelligent and selfless individuals alive today. 

>selfless
topkek

Well, he could be taking the modern game-dev route, and allowing DF downloads for free, but charging $10 for elves, $15 for humans, $25 for cavern access, and a "package deal" for $30 which allows your dwarves to dig, fight, and drink alcohol.

But he's not.

Top kek indeed.
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