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[sal880612m]

Secondly, cosmetic diversity has indeed been way too much of a focus in these latest cycles. I was not at all excited about making honey, and I'm not at all excited about this huge number of real world plants in the game. I loved brewing longland beer! It's gone now? Awwwwwe. This is a fantasy game. The real world is beautiful and interesting in a completely different way than a fantasy world. It's fun taking a break from the real world sometimes to learn about a fantasy world instead. Gimme back my sewer brew!

I think you have two things wrong here. One longland grass and such are still in the game as far as I can tell. Two cosmetic diversity is likely the single smallest part of the new version. Yes there are a bunch of new plants and trees but realistically adding them to the raws is relatively straightforward. What took so long was updating the code for trees to the point that having those trees in the raws could be meaningful. Making them multi-tile, drop fruit, and drop multiple logs. I suppose it might have been possible to work these into the old trees but having seen the new ones I am really glad he didn't. I also have trouble viewing this as possibly being a purely cosmetic change, I can't help but wonder how growing works at this point.

[Putnam]

Make branches. Cataclysm is an example of a game that got out of his original dev hands and HUGELY IMPROVED because of it.

Okay, I know that this has probably been done to death, but this statement is functionally equivalent to "Toady should give up his livelihood entirely".

[cephalo]

I think you have two things wrong here. One longland grass and such are still in the game as far as I can tell. Two cosmetic diversity is likely the single smallest part of the new version. Yes there are a bunch of new plants and trees but realistically adding them to the raws is relatively straightforward. What took so long was updating the code for trees to the point that having those trees in the raws could be meaningful. Making them multi-tile, drop fruit, and drop multiple logs. I suppose it might have been possible to work these into the old trees but having seen the new ones I am really glad he didn't. I also have trouble viewing this as possibly being a purely cosmetic change, I can't help but wonder how growing works at this point.

Are they still in there? Good! I could not find any such thing among the potatoes and junk. There are like 50 plants outside my first fort.

Multi-tile trees are awesome! Have you seen the underground areas? AwsomER!

[Ghills]

You're asking for one man to roof, run electrical and cable, do the siding, and hang the drywall before the framing has been done.  Toady himself has explained a few times in interviews why he's putting off these things and the analogy is apt

Speaking as a programmer...BZZZZ WRONG.

Toady's belief is utterly backwards.  Unsurprising - he's a mathematician, not a programmer.  Programmers understand that it is much easier to begin as they intend to go on.  Going back to rewrite is MUCH HARDER.  The only way around that is to completely separate the UI and logic code.  But...

DF has almost no separation between the UI and the logic AFAI can tell.  It doesn't look, feel or act like a program where that was enforced.  Again, not surprising given Toady's history.  But this means that he's digging himself into a deeper and deeper hole by not taking a step back to enforce better code standards.

Maybe the release timelines are a consequence of Toady trying to do rewrites to better standards.  But equally likely, they're not.  Which just means that there's an exponentially larger amount of work waiting after Toady decides to work on the UI. 

UI isn't about graphical fidelity.  Or sprites.  Or animations.   Or 3D models.  UI is about establishing a consistent and effective way to communicate information to users. Users can then turn that information into actions.   DF's UI is bad because it's inconsistent and uncommunicative.  That needs to change. 

[GlyphGryph]

DDA also KILLED the main branch almost entirely

The main branch was completely dead before DDA even existed, so... that's not really true.

[emeralis00]

Just going to poke my head in against mod integration. I do not want masterwork at all or any of several mods currently in existence.

[Xangi]

DDA also KILLED the main branch almost entirely

The main branch was completely dead before DDA even existed, so... that's not really true.

Well, it did kill any hope of the main branch coming back. Frankly though it's a very different situation. The point is Open Source is not always best, and sometimes is more trouble than it's worth. Also

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

/rlg/ says pls add endgame for DDA

[hermes]

You're asking for one man to roof, run electrical and cable, do the siding, and hang the drywall before the framing has been done.  Toady himself has explained a few times in interviews why he's putting off these things and the analogy is apt

Speaking as a programmer...BZZZZ WRONG.

Toady's belief is utterly backwards.  Unsurprising - he's a mathematician, not a programmer.  Programmers understand that it is much easier to begin as they intend to go on.  Going back to rewrite is MUCH HARDER.  The only way around that is to completely separate the UI and logic code.

Over the years I've seen countless "programmers" on the forums who seem to get really upset and frustrated with how Toady works.  They begin by offering suggestions which are tantamount to "here's how I was taught to do it, you should too", and eventually they devolve into tirades against the whole philosophy of DF and the community that supports it - like the OP.  Then they leave.  A similar pattern comes, to a lesser extent, from modders and open-source advocates and people who take bugs personally.

The anger comes from... a frustration with the reality of a wonderful game that is made with love and brings happiness to thousands of people?  Yeah, go figure.

For my part I get angry with such people.  I don't understand the need to make threads such as this.  It's just negative and completely pointless.  As Putnam said, the OP may as well have asked Toady to just give up his livelihood and stop making DF.  Plenty of things irritate us on the internet, but in this there is a startling lack of perspective.  Worst of all, posts like Ghills' and the OP's flagrantly ignore everything Toady has said on the topic of DF development, where he acknowledges most/all of what you say... consequently you strawman him and the community by pretending you are imparting all kinds of wisdom.

Type and delete, folks.  The best way to get stuff off your chest.  Unfortunately my delete key seems to not be working today... too bad.   

[palu]

I mostly disagree with the OP. That said, he does have some valid points. It could use some UI work. Some new properties for materials could be implemented. More integration of feedback would be nice. Open source would be even better. But I don't really want those things. Some of them would be nice, but at the end, it's Toady's project, and he's gracefully choosing to share it with us.

And it's a simulator, not a game. Stone and animal variety without completely new mechanics is fine for me. It adds flavor and realism to the game. The latest releases have made huge steps toward that goal. The world is now alive, with people traveling across the world and having hopes and dreams. Dwarf hair color, different types of trees (until recently), alcohol types, types of grass, the vast variety of animals, and many other things don't have much mechanical effect, should they not have been implemented?

There are many great mods, and I play them all the time. However, I don't want the major mods in the game. Some ideas, perhaps, and minor features, but not the mods themselves. I'd prefer the vanilla game to remain "pure". Most third-party content should be optional, if included at all. Of course some things, like the DFHack fixes, binary patches, stonesense overlay, and raw fixes, could be included, and some of them are. But Toady doesn't like including other peoples code, and it's his game. I can always download mods and utilities if i want to.

I love DF, and would love it if it had better UI, better modding support, performance improvements, multithreading, more depth, a graphics API, pretty much everything on the suggestions forum. But it's far and away the best game I've ever played, and it would be ungrateful of me to complain. I like it just as it is, and it can only get better from here.

Thank you Toady, it's been a fun ride.

[mnjiman]

I agree with a few points that you have made. For the game to become more accessible time needs to be taken and placed working on the UI, bug fixes and optimizations. Accessibility isn't a goal here however. The game being more user friendly isn't on the schedule right at the moment. I do think he needs to do these things to keep the game up to date and so the code isn't so cluttered as it is (which would make things for him so much easier to deal with), besides that however making this into a game you want his intentions.

I do disagree with your opinion where the game should go however... because its not your game. You talk as if what he is doing is bad for the game. No. Its bad for you. You dislike where its going for your own desires. Guess what? This is not your game. Everything that is happening now isn't happening because people asked for it. The programming occuring isn't being done to add more and more to the game just because. Everything happening right now has been planned for years and years to be done. This is his child and he is happy with everything that is occurring.

You pride yourself as being one of the first people to start playing his game. I think you have allowed that fact to get to your head my friend. The very release you rant about is the very foundations he has wished to do to the game for years. The procedural additions to this game are the very foundations that are going to be used for many future updates. Everything that is being done now has been planned for years. You want us to take your opinions seriously, however the only comparable facts you give us are your past experiences vs now? Your make negative comments about the game yet you cite very insignificant examples. What is the issue that people enjoy the bugs? Do you know why people enjoy bugs? They are unexpected. I expect to be killed by certain enemies. I expect that I might get my guts ripped out. When a fluffy wambler decapitates a Bronze Colossus? Freaking GOLD!

Now, what if these unexpected events occurred because that is the way the history was generated? I have already read of someone randomly killing a mayor of a town, and near by citizens joined his cause. Why? Because the mayor apparently was disliked for being a douche.

That is the direction the game is going right now and you should be happy because of that.

As I said, I do think the game needs to be worked on for optimizations, bugs and UI... but not because it would make the game more enjoyable, so it is easier for him later on to deal with. Other then that, your attempt to make blatant arguments worked in gatherings people attention. Your sacrifice will not for vain, as I am sure ToadyOne has read this thread already.

[Willfor]

The game being more user friendly isn't on the schedule right at the moment.

Actually, yes it is. He's said as much in interviews he's been doing lately. This is a point that I feel is getting glossed over by both the people venting and the people defending. User friendliness is specifically a goal coming right up, extremely soon. He's just had some other things to do first.

[mnjiman]

The game being more user friendly isn't on the schedule right at the moment.

Actually, yes it is. He's said as much in interviews he's been doing lately. This is a point that I feel is getting glossed over by both the people venting and the people defending. User friendliness is specifically a goal coming right up, extremely soon. He's just had some other things to do first.

Well then I correct my statement: He should without a doubt work on optimizations, bugs and UI if he wishes to do that.

[Elaxter]

Wait. So DF is crap now? Where have I been?

Someone condense what the OP said honestly. I don't feel like unraveling the ball of yarn.

[Dyret]

Wait. So DF is crap now? Where have I been?

Someone condense what the OP said honestly. I don't feel like unraveling the ball of yarn.

"Pay attention to me!"

[Neonivek]

I don't agree with what the OP said.

But honestly... It needed to be said anyhow. Sometimes the thread delves a bit too far into game and Toady Worship and Toady is honestly cool enough that any sort of criticism doesn't bother him (sure there was this one guy... but that was a different story)