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[sal880612m]

I read it more:

-I feel nostalgia, gratify it.
-Toady's adding bloat that only has aesthetic appeal.
-Toady should focus on bugfixes and UI improvements.
-Toady's doing it wrong.
-Toady should do what I say now!

[Neonivek]

I read it more:

-I feel nostalgia, gratify it.
-Toady's adding bloat that only has aesthetic appeal.
-Toady should focus on bugfixes and UI improvements.
-Toady's doing it wrong.
-Toady should do what I say now!

You can reduce any complaint to "Do it my way!" because that is what it is.

You are telling the person who made it that what THEY did was wrong, and if you offer an alternative you are telling them to DO what you say.

[Neonivek]

It's not Toady worship. It's "it's this guy's game, let him do it however the hell he wants. Don't like it, make it yourself. It's easier to develop your own game than it is to convince a mountain to be an ocean."

The topic creator mostly said that Toady's development problem will get worse and worse because of his programming strategies.

and your counter for this is to basically say "Well he gonna do it ANYWAY Pshaw" at which point you passionately kissed the ground Toady walked on and created a shrine in his name. *joke*

I am not accusing this thread of Toady Worship, I am saying this board falls into Toady Worship too much. Where people will excuse anything because Dwarf Fortress and Toady is awesome.

[Neonivek]

So then what are you so afraid of? That this will be the one thread that will topple the entire board?

I like these because they create a counter balance to the overwhelming positivity.

[Elaxter]

Seems like it

The changes to adventure mod, though buggy, add so much depth. Instead of talking to Urist McFarmer and getting to exact location of the Hydra-bear-goblin-cat in FarAway Dunes of NoWayToKnowWhere, you have to hear the rumor of said hydra-bear-goblin-cat, find someone who knows where it is, or at least the name of it's location, and then find the location. Right now, no one seems to care: it's more of a "hey, so and so took care of our problem! Good!" The rumor spreads and people know you for slaying the hyrdra-bear-goblin-cat of FarAway Dunes.

History progresses now, you can climb, ect. ect. The game-breaking part is probably the history progressing and new combat/talking system: which all can be fixed.

The OP is missing the big parts that work

The changes to Adventure Mode bleed over to Dwarf Mode

[Eagleon]

As you can see from my profile number I was part of the first "wave" that contributed spreading then word about Dwarf Fortress when it started to surface. I also remember that I helped hosting mirrors when Toady needed to relieve the load on the site. So I'm one of these oldies, disgruntled players that now is going to tell you how things were so much better at the time.

2003 oldie-leetpeen here yo! THREE YEARS oldie-leetpeener than you! I like DF. QED.

Seriously, though, the old 2d version is still available. It's fine to play older games. DF has one of those development plans that isn't always going to be coherent at every stage, it was available for your perusal when you donated/hosted your mirrors/poured out your fanlove to others including everything you're griping about. Would you rather he have worked on it part time or full? IE, early access, or possibly never completed in his lifetime?

[Redzephyr01]

Wait. So DF is crap now? Where have I been?

Someone condense what the OP said honestly. I don't feel like unraveling the ball of yarn.

"I think that Pokemon DF was better in Gen 1 the 2D version, give me attention, look at how unpopular my opinions are!"

[k33n]

Although I strongly disagree with much of what the OP has said, the core game and what is in it now / UI / hundreds of little bugs desperately need fixing, and should be the priority before more features are added. It is a bad sign when almost the totality of the player base runs very modded hacked together fan mods and utilities to make the game playable.

[Boozebeard]

The only major criticism about the update is (not even the crashes or bugs), but the absolutely awkward, clunky dialogue system.

I like the new way rumors and talking work as a whole, but it's very rudimentary at best.

You have your companions telling you the same paragraph about the hill titan in the area while you're sneaking around in an ancient tomb. You make a small remark about the weather and they don't even acknowledge it, other than to tell you about the roc that's kill twenty five in its lust for murder. The long strings of "It is terrifying" does not count as a conversation. And when you tell a villager you just murdered their son, or you tell the local lord you just killed the beast that's been terrorizing the hamlet, all you get is "It was inevitable."

That's not even bringing up the UI of the new conversation system. It starts off great from the first menu, but when you get into the rumors menu and you're flooded with options to tell them all fifty dingoes you killed on your travels, it starts to get annoying. I thought animals that weren't named weren't counted as historical figures? Why should we be able to tell Joe Schmoe about the random camel that attacked you, as if they'd care (They don't care either way, it's always 'inevitable'.)

I get the old UIs being unintuitive, but a whole new interface for conversations does not need to be that cluttered. As well as the events list in your adventurer log.

[Neonivek]

Mine is just that it is now kind of... impossible to play in large worlds. Which is a shame because "I" love large worlds... but I don't have the super computer required to run them.

Medium worlds always just seem so vacant and the Megabeasts die off so fast.

I'd complain about Megabeasts but that is much longer then just this update.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Wait. So DF is crap now? Where have I been?

Someone condense what the OP said honestly. I don't feel like unraveling the ball of yarn.

"I think that Pokemon DF was better in Gen 1 the 2D version, give me attention, look at how unpopular my opinions are!"

*Raises hand

I've followed since '06 myself. DF was good then, and it's simply great now. OP is just.. well.. no comment..

[lue]

Just a couple points I want to make:

• The idea that everything needs to be functionally distinct is incredibly redunctionistic to me, an argument that I never have much sympathy for. Just because you have five metals that are very similar in function and properties doesn't mean it's utterly useless to have them all. Looking at the Real World™, you'll find a startling lack of reductionism in many things. It's also interesting that people think the only "worthwhile" attributes are the pragmatic ones, and that the aesthetic ones are meaningless.
• I happen to be a programmer myself, and I can tell you that I mirror ToadyOne quite a bit, by chance. I try to plan out the basic design, sure, but I can't stand designing everything down to the last detail (shoot me for preferring to code ). I can't imagine what it'd be like to do mind-numbing meticulous design work for something like Dwarf Fortress. There is more than one way to do it, after all; no one programmer can proclaim they know how ToadyOne "should" be programming.

One more thing: on the issue of longstanding bugs, this tweet from ToadyOne makes me confident that some of them will get fixed in this round .

[Putnam]

Looking at the Real World™, you'll find a startling lack of reductionism in many things.

To be fair, the Real World™ wasn't designed.

[Elaxter]

This game is a group effort that needs its community to improve, believe it or not. Sure, Toady is mastering the programming, but the community helps with suggestions and bug finding. If the community complains about the bad, they wont help fix the good.

Looking at the Real World™, you'll find a startling lack of reductionism in many things.

To be fair, the Real World™ wasn't designed.

Your point?

[RealFear]

So then what are you so afraid of? That this will be the one thread that will topple the entire board?

I like these because they create a counter balance to the overwhelming positivity.

That sounds like one of those movie bad-guy speeches where they say that evil in the world is a necessity.
The OP had a few valid points, that may or may not have needed to be said out-loud, but that everybody already knows about, including toady.
But it had a nice big ole' slathering of bitching, whining, and bullshit. A good portion of the complaints complain about things that already happened, and are about lessons that were already learned.

If there was a thread that provided a counter balance to the positivity, we shouldn't want it to be this one.