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[CaptainMcClellan]

How to remove someone you love from a harmful situation/mindset and/or a malevolent influence without alienating them completely and being accused of being a bigoted, manipulative, controlling, and/or possessive bastard who doesn't know what they're talking about. And you can't bring in authorities because "technically" it's not a mental illness or an addiction and they pose no immediate threat to themselves or others. ( Even though the path, if followed out fully, leads to self-destruction and cult-like behaviours. )

Moreover, how does one do this while simultaneously being somewhat mentally unstable...

( Please note: Quitting is not an option, and while I have seen some improvement, I'm still worried. Moreover, I believe that the individual in question may not be fully honest and is just "rolling over" without the issue being solved. )

[Graknorke]

If that's how they want to be that's how they want to be. I don't think there's much you can do.

[CaptainMcClellan]

If that's how they want to be that's how they want to be. I don't think there's much you can do.

Quitting is not an option. I'm not here to be told it can't be done, I'm here to have a community of intelligent people attempt to craft innovative solutions. And well, even if no solutions are found, talking about it will help me remain patient and rational.

[Graknorke]

It would be much easier if you didn't have the condition of it not being manipulative.
Because trying to change someone's views to something you see as more acceptable is being manipulative and controlling.

[Bauglir]

Well, you pretty much have to explain why you think it's a harmful situation, express your desire to help however you can, and let them make their own choices. Be honest, and leave them to it. Otherwise you are being controlling and manipulative, and you deserve to be called out on it. There are cases where that's probably better the alternative (maybe somebody in an abusive relationship or whatever - make up your own corner cases), but they're rare, most commonly caused by people being manipulative in the first place, and they don't automatically absolve you of the manipulative aspects of whatever you're doing. And, in any case, if your manipulation involves hurting them to change their behavior, you're Doing It Wrong.

EDIT: And if you do think manipulating them is the right way to go, I don't think you're going to find many people around here willing (or able, for that matter) to help without a better explanation of what's going on. Shit's very context-dependent.

[Vector]

Indeed. If they didn't want to stay, then that would be one thing, but if you're being told you're manipulative and controlling and won't give up, I guess the question is... why is this person supposed to leave their "harmful situation" in order to have their autonomy eroded by you?

[Shadowgandor]

Bauglir pretty much hit the nail with his post!

[Graknorke]

Indeed. If they didn't want to stay, then that would be one thing, but if you're being told you're manipulative and controlling and won't give up, I guess the question is... why is this person supposed to leave their "harmful situation" in order to have their autonomy eroded by you?

That's a good question.

[CaptainMcClellan]

Well, you pretty much have to explain why you think it's a harmful situation, express your desire to help however you can, and let them make their own choices. Be honest, and leave them to it.

EDIT: And if you do think manipulating them is the right way to go, I don't think you're going to find many people around here willing (or able, for that matter) to help without a better explanation of what's going on. Shit's very context-dependent.

Okay, so you're saying I should just be patient and wait for the situation to resolve itself? ( I have already talked to the person about the issue. In fact, I've talked to her many times.)

True. And for the most part I don't think manipulation is the way to go. Again, they don't pose an immediate threat to themself ( or she doesn't anyway, I can't speak for the whole community because I don't know them all ), and in the long run it may turn out that she never chooses to pursue the path to the point of harm and I was just being paranoid. And I have been upfront with the person, and given my arguments as patient and rationally as I can. How patient and rational that is is probably up to interpretation, but I'd hope at least enough that I'm doing more good than harm. ( I don't want to do harm at all, but sometimes actions have unintentional consequences. )

Nonetheless, there are those who support the offending ideals on less than solid and grounded reasons who by sheer numbers, vitriol, and passion are able to sway people into their not very consistent and mostly illogical points of view. And while the person I am concerned for has escaped one such group ( Satanists ), she's fallen into the grasp of another and I find that extraordinarily frustrating with the amount of time it took for her to realize Satanism is a pile of shit. ( Maybe you're all right though and I just need to wait it out, and besides at least this group seems far less bad than Satanism. )

Indeed. If they didn't want to stay, then that would be one thing, but if you're being told you're manipulative and controlling and won't give up, I guess the question is... why is this person supposed to leave their "harmful situation" in order to have their autonomy eroded by you?

Fair question. I don't want to erode her autonomy though. I want to find a way to convince her to leave on her own volition. If that fails, then at very least I want to provide alternatives and try to show those as preferable options. I would like to just slowly distance her from the group through introducing her to other groups that hold her interest more and are better to be in and by helping her find friends. However, that is going beyond my responsibility and right to act. ( Probably anyway. ) However, I think that it may be justifiable to do so, but again it may not. That's why I'm not doing it. That's why I am here. My ideas are, for the most part, bad. That's why I need help coming up with good ideas that are positive influence, non-manipulative, and non-harmful. By nature, I am manipulative. It's not a trait I'm proud of, and it's one I am trying to eradicate in myself. Especially I do not want to use manipulation on my close friend, but at the same time I am still concerned for her psychological well-being and feel a drive to act. However, if I act in the wrong way it will be far more detrimental to her psychological health than what I am hoping to help with! >.< Is there really nothing I can do but wait?

[Vector]

This is all you really need to know.

Given how much you've tried to pressure her, you have probably already ruined your ability to influence her. But if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future, just invite her to hang out with different groups. Like, "Hey, me and some friends are doing X, wanna come." If they're better for her, then she'll spend more time with them. If it's not better for her, she won't.

And whatever that group might be, it may be providing some benefit for her. The important thing is to just be kind and supportive. That's what you want for her, right? So stop trying to coerce her and provide what you want her to have yourself. Easy-peasy.

[Bauglir]

Vector, I think, has the right of it. The healthiest way to go is based on the allowance that she's capable of making good decisions for herself. The best thing you can do is supply opportunities that you think will help her, and let her take the ones she feels good about.

[CaptainMcClellan]

And whatever that group might be, it may be providing some benefit for her. The important thing is to just be kind and supportive. That's what you want for her, right? So stop trying to coerce her and provide what you want her to have yourself. Easy-peasy.

It... isn't. I think on some level she knows it, but at the same time she is still attached to that group. I'd assume because of her friends. And really, that's good... right? I don't want her to be the kind of person who just drops their friends into a pile of shit alone and cuts their loses. Because I'm not that kind of person. That's why I keep trying for her.

At the same time... If I'm too supportive, then it might come as seeming to be a pushover. ( Which in turn, might be very detrimental also. I need to have a firm stance, yes?) When in reality, she might need the push to get out of that group. And hopefully bring her friends with her. I don't want her friends stuck in that nonsense even though I don't really know them that well. I mean, I don't expect that they are like the abusive ex who got her into Satanism, they seem more like the type that just haven't figured things out for themselves yet. It really doesn't seem they're going about it in any kind of productive way, and I wouldn't even know where to find them to talk to them about it. Nor do I really believe they would listen to me. Again, they don't really know me that well, and I don't know them either. And as for the whole "right for her" thing, I figured out what you meant, but at first it sounded kind of backwards. I mean... isn't drug abuse "right for them" in the addict's mind? That's not what you meant, I think. And I think you meant that deep down, she'll know or does know if something's not right/helpful/good/whatever or will come to figure it out. Is that about right? Or were you saying something else?

[ChairmanPoo]

which group is it?

[Graknorke]

If they're not as bad as Satanists I don't think you have much to worry about. Satanists are pretty benign.

[CaptainMcClellan]

If they're not as bad as Satanists I don't think you have much to worry about. Satanists are pretty benign.

Ineffective is not the same as benign.