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[Grim Portent]

Actually my stance is that the Imperium is as bad as everyone else. There is no light in the darkness, there isn't even any real grey. There is no hope, salvation was burned and buried long ago. All that remains is to see how long it takes for the crumbling shell of humanity to die.

The Imperium kills and enslaves children, makes no distinction between innocent and guilty, drives enslaved and indoctrinated masses into hails of cannonfire, tears apart it's own people to turn them into weapons, destroys the very souls of it's own people to make cyborg forklifts, liquifiy those who die in battle to feed to their fellow soldiers as nutrient paste, crush the populace with factory labour the likes of which would make a Victorian workhouse seem like a holiday, poison the masses with chemical waste, value human life less than they do the flak armour it can wear into battle, provide entire worlds for the pleasure of former notaries of government while people choke on smoke and sleep on rags and countless other wrongs besides.

All in the name of preserving something it lost long ago. Worse than lost even, it took so many of the little things, the quiet moments, the compassion, the mercy, the hope of it's people and it killed them for being inefficient. It is a society where slowing down factory work because of crippling illness receives a beating, where attempts to understand why things are the way they are invites death and kindness is viewed with contempt at best.

It drew the attention of the gods after the Fall deliberately, it gave birth to the sons who would give Chaos an army, indeed it even gave birth to that army. The Eldar birthed monsters, but it was mankind who worshipped them, who called out to them and who call to them still. It is mankind who wage war in the hopes of defeating gods who personify that same war.

In any other reality to struggle and strive would be the greatest way to defeat the gods, in 40k it is the main source of their power. The galaxy turns according to designs millenia in the making and is embroiled forever in the machinations of being who were born from the minds of all mortals but shaped by man above all others.

The Imperium is the only form 'humanity' can survive in outside of Chaos, but much like the Interex, the Terran warlords, the people of Nostromo and countless others before them, what is surviving isn't truly worthy of the name human anymore.

[Kot]

Actually my stance is that the Imperium is as bad as everyone else. There is no light in the darkness, there isn't even any real grey. There is no hope, salvation was burned and buried long ago. All that remains is to see how long it takes for the crumbling shell of humanity to die.

But there is. You're just seeing the one side of the coin.

The Imperium kills and enslaves children,

So do we.

makes no distinction between innocent and guilty,

So do we.

drives enslaved and indoctrinated masses into hails of cannonfire

Yeah also a thing.

tears apart it's own people to turn them into weapons, destroys the very souls of it's own people to make cyborg forklifts,

I'm pretty sure we'd do that too if it was possible in our current tech level.

liquifiy those who die in battle to feed to their fellow soldiers as nutrient paste,

I'd actually doubt that claim, especially relating to whole Imperium. It really sounds like more hassle to retrieve the bodies than anything.

crush the populace with factory labour the likes of which would make a Victorian workhouse seem like a holiday,

Yes, also a check.

poison the masses with chemical waste,

We totally do that too.

value human life less than they do the flak armour it can wear into battle,

Yes. That too.

provide entire worlds for the pleasure of former notaries of government while people choke on smoke and sleep on rags and countless other wrongs besides.

Not worlds, but oh boy we do.

The difference is scale. There is more suffering when it comes to whole Galaxy, but there is also more happiness, which, understandably, is not really in spotlight of nearly all Wh40k media.

All in the name of preserving something it lost long ago. Worse than lost even, it took so many of the little things, the quiet moments, the compassion, the mercy, the hope of it's people and it killed them for being inefficient. It is a society where slowing down factory work because of crippling illness receives a beating, where attempts to understand why things are the way they are invites death and kindness is viewed with contempt at best.

It's not for something that has been lost. It's for something that can be.

It drew the attention of the gods after the Fall deliberately,

They already noticed humanity pretty well, Emperor just made them more pissed in the general sense of "fuck Emperor and his Imperium because they actually pose some sort of threat" rather than "lol let's fuck with Humans forever, they are our toys".

it gave birth to the sons who would give Chaos an army, indeed it even gave birth to that army.

They didin't give them willingly. The Horus Heresy was also result of other shitty decisions that precede it by millenia.

The Eldar birthed monsters, but it was mankind who worshipped them, who called out to them and who call to them still.

So do thousands of other xenos races.

It is mankind who wage war in the hopes of defeating gods who personify that same war.

So yeah, better lay down and die?

In any other reality to struggle and strive would be the greatest way to defeat the gods, in 40k it is the main source of their power.

It's not that simple, really. The exact mechanics aren't clear, and it might as well fuel Emperor now. Warp, I ain't gotta explain shit.

The galaxy turns according to designs millenia in the making and is embroiled forever in the machinations of being who were born from the minds of all mortals but shaped by man above all others.

Yeah, no. Warp was fucked beyond recognition by the War in Heaven, and the resulting fucked up Gods are directly due to that, not humans... or are you just forgetting the whole Enslavers plague and all that shit?

The Imperium is the only form 'humanity' can survive in outside of Chaos, but much like the Interex, the Terran warlords, the people of Nostromo and countless others before them, what is surviving isn't truly worthy of the name human anymore.

Then what is? What is worthy calling humanity?

[Xantalos]

Ultimately it boils down to what type of narrative you like better, it seems. Kot likes a humanocentric narrative that has the ultimate struggle of 40k at its core to be human, and what that means. Grim prefers a, well, grimdark view on the setting, where it's an excersise in mutual evil, and the only difference in morality between most factions is not the scale of their horrificness, because everyone is equally bad, but their reasons for doing so. I think both are valid views, just not at the same time.

[Kot]

difference in morality between most factions is not the scale of their horrificness, because everyone is equally bad, but their reasons for doing so.

Okay, sure, then.
Imperium and Tau want selfish propagation of their own race.
Eldar just kinda exist, and also want to create literal God of Death (which they apparently kinda are succeding in) to take venegance on Chaos by murdering everything that moves.
Chaos just want to let the Galaxy burn.
Tyranids just want to eat everything.
Dark Eldar want to torture and shit to prolong their lives.
Necrons want to kill everything alive.
Orks also want the Galaxy to burn, although just in fighty way.

I mean, fuck, the motives of all of them aren't great either, but at least humanity fights for your own damn race goddamnit. For you.

[scriver]

Posting to watch, I'd like to see how people can justify actually caring about this universe where there seems to be no hope, everything is absolutely shitty and all the factions are almost equally evil.

I want to draw extra attention to this part and point out that not only is there no hope, one of the main big bad super demon destroyers of the universe is literally literally the god of Hope.

And that is my favourite thing about 40k.

Also not all factions are equally evil. You can always bet on the Taurus guys who not only are resistant to Chaos but also don't want to exterminate absolutely everything not them, only most of the things. Unfortunately for you humans are notd on their approved species list.

Who are the Taurus? I've never heard of such bovine xenon. The only peeps I can think of with resistance to chaos are modified humans and the tau, if you meant the tau they do have at least a decent number of our favorite squishy, oily bipedal apes fighting for them, unless GW's done some major retcon that I'm not aware of?

Heh, I had misremembered their name as tauri and my phone must have autocorrupted it. I'm not a particularly big 40k buff, I just popped into the thread at that moment and wanted to share.

In other things I want to share I secretly wish for the emperor to turn out to be a fifth chaos god.

[Rolan7]

I like the canon where he was created by a bunch of mystics, but he can still be a god.  Just more like Talos than uh Akatosh or something.  A new god.  On the same level as the chaos gods, or Khaine.

Posting to watch, I'd like to see how people can justify actually caring about this universe where there seems to be no hope, everything is absolutely shitty and all the factions are almost equally evil.

I want to draw extra attention to this part and point out that not only is there no hope, one of the main big bad super demon destroyers of the universe is literally literally the god of Hope.

And that is my favourite thing about 40k.

Oh yeah, Tzeentch I guess.  I forget about that sometimes.
In person I'd be a servant of Nurgle.  Obsessed with safety and stability, and legacies and stuff.  Pretty dang good at it, too.  But online I'm the Slaaneshi worshiper I *want* to be, who actually enjoys all the things life offers (even SFW).  Video games, fanfictions, fascinatingly intricate roleplays, the amazing creativity of people online.

Also not all factions are equally evil. You can always bet on the Taurus guys who not only are resistant to Chaos but also don't want to exterminate absolutely everything not them, only most of the things. Unfortunately for you humans are notd on their approved species list.

*coughs at longstanding personal text* (Gue'Vesa, AKA human integrated into the Tau empire)

Who are the Taurus? I've never heard of such bovine xenon. The only peeps I can think of with resistance to chaos are modified humans and the tau, if you meant the tau they do have at least a decent number of our favorite squishy, oily bipedal apes fighting for them, unless GW's done some major retcon that I'm not aware of?

Huh, somehow I never got the tau-taurus connection!  I always thought of them as deer/cervidae instead.  Both have cloven hooves, as Tau do.  The name suggests bovine, but I feel like their litheness suggest deer.  Either way, their armor needs more horns or antlers

[scriver]

Oh, I didn't know humans were allowed to "integrate" into the Tau. I knew they had gorilla/ape people but I thought those were just some other kind of alien. See, I thought them deer bulls weren't very keen on that whole "chaos gateways in their heads" thing humans have got going.

To whoever said it (Kot i think?) why would the Tau be particularly chanceless? I thought it was the psychic-less species that were particularly defensible against Chaos. Although maybe my notion that the Tau don't psyke is just a misconception too?

[Rolan7]

I think Kronus in Dawn of War:  Dark Crusade is still a human-inhabitated planet, the Tau just laid claim and occupied some years before.  Depending on who you ask, it's not a bad situation, they just take tithes.  Allow Emperor-worship, notably!  Volunteers are welcomed into the Tau army as Gue'Vesa auxillaries, though that isn't shown in the video games yet.  Economically, some worlds supposedly do better under the Greater Good.

Of course the Imperium claims there's mass-extermination/neutering, mind control spores, etc...  I'm skeptical, but who knows

[scriver]

I was also under the conception that the Tau was very into genetically engineering their subject races to whatever aim suited them (notably resistance/insurrection/opposition to the Tau). Have I been falling for Imperial propaganda this whole time?!

[Grim Portent]

The Tau are known for a number of bad things, genocide/castration of human populations was backed up by the Deathwatch rpg if I recall in addition to being in DoW, they enslaved the Vespid with mind controlling 'translator helmets', dissident citizens are often made to dissapear. They also sacrificed a bunch of their own people to the Dark Eldar and to a genestealer cult, the former because the ethereals refused to sacrifice themselves to save other Tau, the latter because they thought genestealers and hybrids might be able to join their normal society.

Where the Imperium is a giant dystopia ala Judge Dredd filled with illiterate gangers fighting wars with super military cops in a society where the wealthy sometimes literally hunt people, the Tau are 1984 style surveillance state, with purges, gulags and similar as well. Plus a massive dose of naivete about alien bodysnatchers and literal daemons from space hell.

Like the Imperium, Chaos Marines and Eldar they believe in manifest destiny. They claim that the Tau should rule the stars in the name of the Greater Good and that their victory is inevitable, which directly led to the Damocles Gulf Debacle which ended with their leader dead, their armada in ruins and the actual void of space on fire.

There's an implication that they only put up with non Tau for the moment because they need them. They like to gradually displace less pliable populations with Tau ones, peacefully incorporating a planet into the empire then slowly causing the locals to die off.

All this without touching on the Ethereal caste's passive mind manipulating effects on normal Tau.



That said, living under the Tau is basically a mildly nicer version of doing so under the Imperium. It's cleaner, tech is generally quieter and breaks less often though the best stuff is kept for the actual Tau and you do basically the same jobs as you did before. You farm, you build stuff in factories and so on. You do pose for more propoganda though, there's more red tape involved, stricter regulations (that are actually enforced,) drones are everywhere watching you, your neighbours may just vanish in the night and be erased from all records and if you ask too many questions or complain too much you get sent to be reeducated. Your children may be chemically castrated by the juice they get at school.

Similar things happen in the Imperium on some worlds but it's generally too much effort for the Imperium to bother sending police after grumbling and complaints when there's Spook smugglers to hunt down, servo skulls are too important to use for surveillance and regulations are nigh unenforcable. It's easy to vanish in the human clutter.

[Xantalos]

-snip-

This might seem a little facetious, but...

Imperium and Tau want selfish propagation of their own race.

True.

Eldar just kinda exist, and also want to create literal God of Death (which they apparently kinda are succeding in) to take venegance on Chaos by murdering everything that moves.

They want to create Ynnead so it can kill Slaanesh and they can rebirth their gods so that they can actually propagate their own race again. Same as the above, just a more roundabout method.

Chaos just want to let the Galaxy burn.

The more small c chaos there is in the galaxy the more Chaos is strengthened and the more daemons are born. Self-propagation.

Tyranids just want to eat everything.

So there can be more Tyranids, at the expense of everything else.

Dark Eldar want to torture and shit to prolong their lives.

You can see where I'm going with this.

Necrons want to kill everything alive.

If the Necrons kill all life and seal off the warp there won't be anything capable of killing them.

Orks also want the Galaxy to burn, although just in fighty way.

Orks literally reproduce via battle, the more of them fight and die the more Orks spawn.

Every faction is essentially fighting for survival, they just express it in different ways.

I mean, fuck, the motives of all of them aren't great either, but at least humanity fights for your own damn race goddamnit. For you.

I can respect that opinion, but at the same time the whole point of a fictional setting is that I'm not obligated to sympathize with the human faction because I myself have a human body.

[Egan_BW]

WHAOK humans aren't even the same species as me, they have psi genes and shit. Why should I sympathize with this particular alien species of furless apes just because they look mostly like me and are from a planet called terra? May as well say the Eldar are the good guys then, because they're basically humans too.

[scriver]

What are you on about, I totally have psi powers.

* scriver concentrates very deeply on making all of you get an itch on your backs

[LordBaal]

So muchos heresy con this thread... Only Kot makes the emperor happy! The rest of you prepare for reeducation camps!

[Paxiecrunchle]

The Tau are known for a number of bad things, genocide/castration of human populations was backed up by the Deathwatch rpg if I recall in addition to being in DoW, they enslaved the Vespid with mind controlling 'translator helmets', dissident citizens are often made to dissapear. They also sacrificed a bunch of their own people to the Dark Eldar and to a genestealer cult, the former because the ethereals refused to sacrifice themselves to save other Tau, the latter because they thought genestealers and hybrids might be able to join their normal society.

Where the Imperium is a giant dystopia ala Judge Dredd filled with illiterate gangers fighting wars with super military cops in a society where the wealthy sometimes literally hunt people, the Tau are 1984 style surveillance state, with purges, gulags and similar as well. Plus a massive dose of naivete about alien bodysnatchers and literal daemons from space hell.

Like the Imperium, Chaos Marines and Eldar they believe in manifest destiny. They claim that the Tau should rule the stars in the name of the Greater Good and that their victory is inevitable, which directly led to the Damocles Gulf Debacle which ended with their leader dead, their armada in ruins and the actual void of space on fire.

There's an implication that they only put up with non Tau for the moment because they need them. They like to gradually displace less pliable populations with Tau ones, peacefully incorporating a planet into the empire then slowly causing the locals to die off.

All this without touching on the Ethereal caste's passive mind manipulating effects on normal Tau.



That said, living under the Tau is basically a mildly nicer version of doing so under the Imperium. It's cleaner, tech is generally quieter and breaks less often though the best stuff is kept for the actual Tau and you do basically the same jobs as you did before. You farm, you build stuff in factories and so on. You do pose for more propoganda though, there's more red tape involved, stricter regulations (that are actually enforced,) drones are everywhere watching you, your neighbours may just vanish in the night and be erased from all records and if you ask too many questions or complain too much you get sent to be reeducated. Your children may be chemically castrated by the juice they get at school.

Similar things happen in the Imperium on some worlds but it's generally too much effort for the Imperium to bother sending police after grumbling and complaints when there's Spook smugglers to hunt down, servo skulls are too important to use for surveillance and regulations are nigh unenforcable. It's easy to vanish in the human clutter.

Sorry to go in a diffrent direction, but  is that assuming that the ethereal's are actually....tau rather than some sort of warp based beings or something? I mean they came out of basically nowhere, right.