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[Rolepgeek]

4maskwolf, if they're hired pirates, why would they be able to tell what faction they were from?

And for that matter, considering the huge distances involved, what's to say they'll be able to get a transmission back easily? For all we know, there's no FTL communication, except by direct courier style.

However, I agree that it should not be a full blown massacre style pitched battle. More like raids to take off a few trade ships at a time; even if they don't have escorts, it's completely conceivable that a trade convoy could manage to escape by sacrificing some of it's ships with some clever maneuvering(if trade ships don't have some form of extremely basic defense weaponry on them, I will call the bullshit). As well, the more ships you send, the more difficult it should be to hide, for all circumstances of hiding something(identity, fleet composition, fact that they're attacking, etc.).

I agree that influence is extremely powerful; at first I thought it would be a bit difficult to use since I didn't think you could really get very much, but these first few turns have disillusioned me of that notion.

[10ebbor10]

ebbor, in case of stalemate battle will continue until one side is defeated or retreats. In case of a retreat(of the pirate) the pirates identity becomes known.

Also you could have done a lot more damage with a different setup:
the enemy had a generally stronger fleet than you had, since he expects you to take mag shields all the way through (which you did) you can assume that he will use boarding, since it cant be blocked by any current means and gives an advantage to his stronger ships when it goes over to boarding. Sicne Boarding disables Mag Fields you can go with Weapon Overclock and when that happens at least in the second battle you could have (potentially) done more damage than you could ever do in a boarding battle. besides the damage you do during weapon overclock damages the ships and if he has no troops onboard thats the strength with which he attacks, so a class 4 ship brought down to strength 2 via overclock which then starts boarding, fights with strength 2. Giving you a much better chance...

In any case yes the pirates were strong because much money was invested.

That was mostly due to a flawed understanding of game mechanics on my part. I thought that you:
a) Needed ground troops on your ships to allow boarding operations (And, that even if you didn't, that ship strength would not influence boarding strength.) [FYI, I think this is a rule changed mid-battle*. Or at least it wasn't clarified.]
b) That standing your ground would force the enemy to retreat.

With those 2 misunderstandings, It's logical that I went full shielding, since boarding would be on equal terms for both sides, and an enemy weapons overclock would destroy him. Besides, I don't know the composition of the enemy forces before battle, which makes it rather hard to make tactical decisions.

On a side note, this change means that in a battle, the best thing the superior force can do is to constantly spam magnetic fields. The battle repeats endlessly until the enemy makes his move, either going for Weapons overclock (which kills him) or boarding (which will occur in favor of the superior force, there being no difference between boarding and being boarded).

On a side note, I strongly disagree with the notion that the ship class should be counted as the strength in a boarding battle. For one, it makes world ships undefeatable,  and two it obsoletes using ground troops as boarding force. The best ground troops we have are tier 1. The first carriers are tier 4.  This means that barring hiring mercs, there's only a 1/36 chance that a successful boarding operation is executed.

* Not that I mind, you know. It saved my from another error I had made.

[Ghazkull]

okay several things, first off pirating and influence are going to be revised in the following weeks and days, secondly i will post much less due to haveing exams coming my way.

That said to answer ebbors questions: the Rule was not changed mid battle but rather i had it planned in from the beginning but forgot to change it after copying some rules from Mandate.

THe Second thing is: Why didn't you know the enemy composition? Didn't i send you that? If that was not the case i apologize for this grave mistake. For future reference, if i forget to send you the fleet strength before a battle contact me, in case i forget it.

You are right there were several mistakes made by me during the boarding battles(for example using ship troops without penalties, which should be there) and yes ground troops ahve a major advantage:
If you lose a boarding battle as the one with ground troops, you only lose the ground troops, not your ship.

Again i apologize to you ebbor i have made several errors during the ship battles, but as you all see yourselves the thing is damn complicated and things are sometimes missed, i think this will hopefully not happen again.
In any case i will try and work out several better systems for piracy and influence (although im pretty happy with piracy as it is)

[10ebbor10]

poke

[Ghazkull]

now now updates will happen in the next few days...i currently dont have time, updates as said before will come at a much slower pace.

[4maskwolf]

To preempt any pokes or notifications, I'm waiting for the rules updates to determine my action.

Hope things go well for you with your exams Ghaz!!!!!

[Ghazkull]

Okay i think i found a way to make Espionage at least different (and hopefully a) more balanced and b) in my opinion more interesting) while it is not completely fleshed out i had the rough idea of breaking down espionage actions into phases: the more complex and powerful the action, the more phases it would contain, all which could fail.

More on that however on tuesday when i am finished with my Danish Exam. This was just to show that the game is still alive and well and that i did at least a bit of work on the Espionage.

[4maskwolf]

Okay i think i found a way to make Espionage at least different (and hopefully a) more balanced and b) in my opinion more interesting) while it is not completely fleshed out i had the rough idea of breaking down espionage actions into phases: the more complex and powerful the action, the more phases it would contain, all which could fail.

There are two different ways I'm reading this: that an action takes expenditures over multiple turns or that an action takes multiple expenditures within the same turn.  I like this system, but I think what I see as the fundamental problem of the system still remains: all you have to do is put in one influence more than your opponent has available.

I've actually refined my ideas since my post a while back, so in the spoilers below I have put the 4maskwolf proposed solution.  This is just how I would fix the system, I don't expect to see any of it in the final system:

Spoiler: 4maskwolf proposed solution (click to show/hide)

I've thought a little more about this, and realized that even with the system I proposed last time to make things more fair there were still things I missed.  So, for starters, I'm going to talk about the way that I would break down the espionage phase.

I would split the espionage phase into two phases, the preparation phase and the espionage phase proper.  In the preparation phase, you perform black-market trades, put points into counter-espionage, put points towards hiding pirates, and can perform the probe counter-espionage action.  Then you get a report back for this phase.  This is followed by the espionage phase proper, which would use the rules I outlined in the previous spoilered post.  This would allow the probe counter-espionage action to have some value to the players and also have pirates attacking without knowing the exact number of points they spent.  Piracy would use the same rules as I outlined before if I were to use this system.  The reason piracy would be done in the blind is that you need to deploy them before you get a report back from your spies in order to get them to the system on time.

I like this thing about splitting actions into various steps.  I would add an incite populace espionage action, which causes the populace of a targeted planet to become unruly.  It's base cost is 10 per unit of population.  One point of populace per use of the action would become unruly.  If a planet does not have at least as many divisions of soldiers as it has unruly populace, any unruly populace beyond the number of divisions you have on the planet will not do work.  Populace can be made orderly again by the target expending their own influence, (5?) per point of unruly population to be made orderly.  A failure to incite populace results in a roll of a d6: on 1-5, they know you did it, on a 6 they know you did it and get five points of influence infiltrated in your government.
Another action I would add would be the bribe police action.  This costs 20/planet affected.  The bribe police action causes the number of soldiers on a planet to be halved for the purposes of determining unruly population for three turns.  So if the planet had 10 divisions on site, it would count as only having five.  A failure would result in them knowing who did it and getting 10 influence infiltrated in your government.  The player does not know that the police have been bribed directly, although if this causes populace to not work that would otherwise have worked they can determine it indirectly.
Only after you have bribed the police on a planet and more than half of the populace is unruly can you attempt to start a revolution on that world, which would use the same rules except that it costs base 30/planet.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Ghazkull]

Updated Espionage Rules:

Spoiler:  Espionage Updated (click to show/hide)

Influence is a perishable Resource, it means that if you assign 10 Populace to it  permanently you will get each turn 10 Influence. It will not rise above that. You can use the 10 Influence and next turn you will have the same amount.
 
Influence is used for Espionage and to Influence other Nations.
 
Espionage
Espionage is now a bit more complex:

First of all you select what you want to do Espionage wise. Each Action is divided into Espionage Phases and depending on hte action might become more and more complex and involve more and more expensive. This change will hopefully make Espionage more seldom more easy to defend against but also far more rewarding if you suceed.

To explain how it works now lets say we want to assassinate a Head of State (note that the numbers used in this example are not the actual in game numbers, which however will be posted a bit further down):

A Umodified Assassination consists of 4 Phases: Insertion ,Preparation ,Assassination and Escape. To activate each of these phases you need to invest 1 Influence. You could also just invest two Influence for the Preparation and the Assassination which will lead to your Assassin being definetly caught and the enemy getting an advance warning that somebody is oging to assassinate his Head of State, both things which you propably want to avoid. On the other hand you can make the Assassination mroe complex by adding more phases. You want to blame it on somebody else? Add a fifth phase. Contingency Plans? Sixth phase and upwards.

For each phase 1d10 will be rolled. on a 1 you suceed in all other cases the Phase fails. But wait, you can improve your chances by investing more influence into the respective phases. Note respective Phases. You have to invest for each phase extra. The Defender however only needs to invest point into Counterespionage. what will happen if both of you is the following:
Lets say Ghaz invest 10 Point to have Taricus Head of State assassinated and Taricus invests 5 point into Counterintelligence the 1d10 will turn into a 1d15 and anything from 10 and below will count as a success for the Phasse.
In other words with each point of influence invested into a Phase you will get one more chance at succeeding on the roll. Counterintelligence Influence increases the number on the (imaginary) dice you have to roll.

So you failed your Phase? What now? That depends on the next roll. A 1d6 will be rolled with various results depending on your failure. If you fail at insertion the worst that can happen is getting your spy caught, the best that can happen is that you just didnt get your assassin infiltrated and that gamewise you will have it harder on the next phases. Thus partial successes or partial failures can be achieved: Failing the Assassination but suceeding on the Obfuscation Phase would basically make the Head of State survive but cause the blame for the Assassination Attempt to fall on somebody else. This may lead to lots and lots of different results for a Espionage Action. Now onwards to the Specifics, several of them were removed and integrated into others, expanding them.

Note that Espionage Research will increase chances at success...or decrease it for your opponents.
 
 

Infiltrate Government
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Infiltration
Possible Phases (just suggestions, i will customize these depending on what you want to do): Probing, Uncovering the Dirt
Effect: Not only allows you to Simply infiltrate Influence for future use (basically save it like on a bank account).
Insertion Phase
has no practical effect for the Agressor but if you fail a 1d6 will be rolled
1 Agent caught and enemy gets information about one of your recent Influence investments and can monitor to where that Influence goes if you move it to another action.
2,3 Agent caught your identity revealed
4,5,6 Insertion Phase fails, double the number on all other phases you have to roll on ( if it was 1d10 its now 1d20, 1d30 now 1d60 etc.)
Infiltration
For each 5 Influence you wish to infiltrate you have to roll once more. ( so for 5 1d10, for 10 two 1d10 seperatly and so on not that no matter how often you roll the full CE of the Defender will be added)
Failure:
1 Agent caught, identity revealed all influence so far infiltrated(in this action) will instead be given to the victim which infiltrates it into your government
2,3 Agent caught, your identity revealed,
4,5 Agent escapes but the action stops right were you left off ( so if two rolls were successfull you will have the 10 Infiltrated Influence) victim will be informed
6 Phase fails but you can continue with the next roll, Victim will not be informed
Probing
Basically discovering what exactly the enemy has in Counterintelligence and what he has on you. Failure only means that the Enemy will be informed that he has been probed by someone
Uncovering the Dirt
Basically get information on all the Victims Espionage Stuff so far.
Faiilure:
1 Agent Caught, all former phases fail and all Influence infiltrated is lost. Additionally the enemy will recieve what you tried to achieve
2,3 Agent caught, your identity revealed, all former phases fail and all Influence infiltrated is lost.
4,5 Agent caught, your identity revealed.
6 Phase fails.

Sabotage
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Preparation, Sabotage
Possible Phases: Escape, Diplomatic Incident
Insertion
same as before
Preparation
similiar to Insertion but with different results if you fail:
1 Agent caught, Identity revealed and future Sabotage Actions will always have +5 on the Roll ( instead of 1d10, 1d15) this effect is cumultative
2,3 Agent caught your identity revealed
4,5,6 Preparation Phase fails, your identity will be revealed at the end of the Espionage Action. IF you chose Diplomatic Accident(and it was successfull), the Enemy will recieve something along the lines of: "Either House A or House B was responsible for this)
Sabotage
Sabotage Ships, Troops, Fortresses, Planetary Defenses...for each 10 Hitpoints(ships,troops), Fortress Levels or Planetary Defenses roll 1d10.
Failure:
1 Agent caught, Identity revealed and future Sabotage Actions will always have +10 on the ROll
2,3 Agent caught, your identity revealed
4,5 Agent escapes
6 Phase fails, continue with the rest of your actions (aka if you prepared 4 phases of bombing and you fail in phase 3 continue on to phase 4)
Diplomatic Incident
Blame it all on somebody else
Failure:
1 Agent caught, Identity revealed, both sides will be informed of your Actions, Diplomatic Incident phases involving these two Factions will in the future have +5 to the roll
2,3 Agent caught, Identity revealed both sides of course informed
4,5 Agent escapes, both sides informed of Diplomatic Incident attempt
6 Phase fails
 
Steal Research:
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Theft
Possible Phases: Escape
Effect: Steal someones Research you don't have yet.
Insertion
as above
Theft
steal the research
Failure:
1 Agent caught, Identity revealed, enemy gets some advances on one of his research projects or one of your techs depending on how much farther than you he is advanced.
2,3 Agent caught, Identity reavealed
4,5,6 Agent escapes
Escape
As above

Terrorism:
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Preparation, Terrorism
Possible Phases: Escape, Diplomatic Incident
Effect: Ah Good Old Terrorism, nothing better to cause chaos in the enemies ranks than to blow up his Industry or sterilizing the Populace by poisoning the Water Supplies. A Succeeded Terrorist Action will (opposed to the raid Action, which adds the looted tag) destroy a modifier, costing 5 resources (Trade Goods, Food, Production, Money) in an combination, to repair it.
Terrorism
Roll 1d10 for each Modifier you wnat to blow ter bits
Failure:
1 Agent caught, Identity Revealed, Unrest on YOUR Colonies: Xd100 Regiments will rise up in rebellion all over your empire (X being your total population in your empire...yes this is supposed to hurt that bad)
2,3 Agent caught, Identity Revealed, Unrest on YOUR Colonies: xd10 Regiments will rise up ( if you are asking why, well would you follow a government that is supporting terrorism?)
4,5,6 Agent escapes

Unrest and Rebellion:
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Preparation, Inciting Unrest
Possible Phases: Escape, Diplomatic Incident
Effect: Causes in the Targeted Planets an Open Rebellion for a New Government. Where this is not possible (aka Hive Minds) a Simple Coup D'Etat will take place. In any case all planets which are successfully turned will join the Revolutionary Government and fight against the Original until one side is defeated, then the new government takes over. The Victim player will still be able to continue even if his government fell and can attempt to do a Peaceful Counterrevolution (see Diplomatic Actions).
Inciting Unrest
Add one Minimum Influence for each population you want to Incite unrest upon and 1 more for each extra dice you want to throw.
That means for each Unit of Population you want to incite you have to roll an extra 1d10 and the number of Rebels are determined by 1d10x (x being the number of influence you wanted invested in that). You can invest up to a maximum of 1d100 Groundtroops if you invest more influence you will get ships and stronger Troops add infinitum.
Failure:
1 Identity revealed the enemy infiltrates X Units into your Empire which he can raise at any point he chooses (X is replaced by a certain number of Insurgents he managed to smuggle into your lands instead. the number depends largerly on what you tried to infiltrate into his lands. so 1d100 Ground troops you tried would turn into 1d50 he will now infiltrate and so on and so forth)
2,3 Identity revealed, Agent caught, entire uprising is prevented
4,5 Agent escapes, so far succeeded rebels will rise anyway
6 Phase fails, Other units will continue.
 
Assassinate Head of State:
Minimum Number of Phases: Insertion, Preparation, Assassination
Possible Phases: Escape, Diplomatic Incident
Effect: Effects may vary between the form of Government and may go from Simple inactivity of military and government actions due to reelections up to a full blown Civil War between Successors and Claimants. (effects will be described on a case to case basis)
Assassination
yeah basically killing whoever is in charge. Shoot the King, Disrupt the hivemind, Explode the Senate...whatever topples the Head(s) of a Government
Failure:
1 Agent caught, Identity Revealed, future assassinations add +1d10 (this one not modified by counterintelligence) to succeed (represents increased security)
2,3 Agent caught, Identity Revealed
4,5,6 Agent escapes
 
 
Diplomacy
Influence can also be used in a more legal and obvious manner.
 
Influence Minor Government
Cost: 10 Influence per Planet per Stage ( so 10, then 20, 30 etc.)
Increases the Opinion of a Minor Government for Alliance and Assimiliation purposes. All invested Influence will be saved towards the next stage. So if you cant invest 10 Influence at once you can invest 5 and then next turn another 5.
 
Declaration of Friendship
Cost: Needs Friendly Minor Government, 10 Influence per Planet
The Minor Government officially declares you a friend of the State and you both sign a Defensive Pact, in case one of you are attacked you will declare on the aggressor.
 
Alliance
Cost: Needs Cordial Minor government+DoF, 20 Influence per Planet
The Minor Government signs an Alliance with you and will support you in Aggressive and Defensive Wars. Both your Intelligence Services will cooperate.
 
Federation
Cost: Needs Close Minor Government+DoF+Alliance, 30 Influence per Planet
The Minor government grants you control over their military and Influence.
 
Decrease Relationship between Nations
Cost: You need more Influence than the other Player over the Minor Government, Half the Cost of Increasing the Relationship.
You tell vile lies (or hard truths) about another government thus reducing their relationship with another nation.

Piracy will be handled later.

[10ebbor10]

Seems a bit complex, but interesting. It might be interesting to re-organize the list into 3 separate sub lists though, and allow people to mix and match.

One problem I see, and this is the result of there no longer being a perfect way to do defense, is that people might consider some tactics to dangerous to use. ((Also, your terrorists are our freedom fighters. People will support subterfuge, if the PR division does it's job.))

[Ghazkull]

Well defense is quite easy now since your Counter-Intelligence value applies to every roll so if you put 50 Inf into Counter Intelligence it works through all phases and even through all attacks so your Counterintelligence does not deplete. It makes Attacks incredibly expensive to get a reasonable success-chance but on the other hand it is supposed to achieve that espionage becomes a bit less common place and more of a one-off long time prepared crippling blow. Also the high stakes prevent early crippling attacks, research aswell supports late game attacks with Spionage.

[4maskwolf]

Well defense is quite easy now since your Counter-Intelligence value applies to every roll so if you put 50 Inf into Counter Intelligence it works through all phases and even through all attacks so your Counterintelligence does not deplete. It makes Attacks incredibly expensive to get a reasonable success-chance but on the other hand it is supposed to achieve that espionage becomes a bit less common place and more of a one-off long time prepared crippling blow. Also the high stakes prevent early crippling attacks, research aswell supports late game attacks with Spionage.

On cursory examination, this looks very good.  I can't wait to see how you handle piracy.

[Rolepgeek]

You can spread the phases among the various turns, yes? Things like Insertion and Preparation don't necessarily have to be done in a very short time frame, after all.

[Ghazkull]

hmm that would be a good idea if my intention was to make it easier for the offensive side but i exactly want to prevent that. I would have really liked to add it but its counteracting exactly what i tried to achieve.

[Ghazkull]

After some consideration, piracy will recieve no update. It will stay as it is.

Onwards to other things then:

I will update the Map soonish with results of your expeditions...

Taricus if you are still interested in the game please post your configuration of planets.