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[notquitethere]

Toaster

NQT:  How does the potential for conversion affect your aggregate suspicion tracker?  Does it invalidate anything that's not the current day?

It would render the sort of thing Flabort does pretty useless, but as I just log what people say and do, I'm in a better place to spot conversions. Also, we've not killed any of the original scum team, so scummy stuff from Day 1 is still fair game.

TheWetSheep

I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.

Oh no! I'm coming across as Too Townie! Uh... so you're saying you'd rather I not be helpful? It's something anyone could do, sure, but it's still something that should be done. And it's not everything I'm doing.

Why are you disregarding ZU's information in your last post? I would think that it would be pretty important.

And why do you love ZU so much?

See your concern for me voting him here, for instance:

You were suspicious of ZU because he wasn't posting content. Now that he is, how has your read changed?

And now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Jim Groovester: TheWetSheep
notquitethere: zombie urist
zombie urist: Jack A.T., notquitethere, ToonyMan


Day ends ~4pm Pacific Monday

[zombie urist]

Ok NQT now you're actually doing IIOA

[notquitethere]

Working out what kind of threat we're after is a legitimate thing to do. I'm also pursuing cases, asking questions, going over the reads etc.

So where's my answers?

[Persus13]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I'm a little busy with other stuff right now. I'll have a post up later today hopefully.

[Hapah]

PFP

Hapah: When you've read through the game, I'd like your reads please.

I read it yesterday and skimmed it a little today, but it's hard to get reads when you weren't there, you know? I did as best I could in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: Reads. If they're not bolded I ran out of time. (click to show/hide)

Jack A.T.

Jim Groovester: Just busy. I liked the bit I've seen well enough though, took Jio to task on his weak case and didn't let go just because Jio backed off of it.

ToonyMan

flabort: I think flabort is new? The lines of questioning (not only his question to me) seem a little unusual, but I think he's playing it straight with his night results. Playing the "town" card a little too much, though. Leaning towards town or at least not directly hostile.

Persus13

notquitethere: The impression that I've got, for you and flabort both, you sorta remind me of how I played in that last WC game I was in. Like maybe you have some information I don't; and you're trying to frame the game in a way to lead us the way you want or need us to go. No time for quotes (and hell, I might even be totally in the wrong), but that's the impression I've got.

Toaster

zombie urist: Just busy.

TheWetSheep

Ottofar

Imperial Guardsman: Something about his claim doesn't sit quite right, but I very much doubt he could have created that flavor he posted out of nothing. I haven't played with him much or read many games that he played in, but he seems very...hectic, I guess? I've got questions.

Hapah:  What's your preferred method of dealing with a cult?

I don't know that I've ever played with one, actually. Best way I could think of would be to look for sudden shifts in attitudes; strong-ish cases dropped or backed away from without much in the way of explanation.

IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.

[Jack A T]

I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.

flabort: And what has the inevitable mass unwillingness to massclaim told you about your fellow players?

Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.

You're making dangerously flawed assumptions.

*You can't safely assume that scum, aside from whoever does the main scum kill/convert/whatever, will lie about their powers in a massclaim.  Most scum powers are town powers as well, and it's often much safer to tell the truth and justify it as pro-town than to tell a lie.  Heck, scum sometimes tries to actively carry out pro-town night actions.

*You can't safely assume that you will be able to prove scum is lying if they lie.  This is not CYOM.  We do not have a massive network of investigative roles to all confirm each other, as that is horribly broken.  There are many powers that are quite hard to confirm or deny, particularly if we don't have a tracker or watcher or whatever (or, say, if they die or get converted because the scumteam knows who they are because they claimed).

That wasn't entirely the message I meant to infer. I meant, "I hoped you'd be willing to answer my questions, since you're newer". I did not mean "If you don't answer I'll immediately throw you into my red area of the scumometer", which wouldn't be possible anyways.

See, I don't see either of those messages.  What I see in your post is you telling Hapah that by not telling you his role, he was not cooperating with town (implying that he should tell you his role to properly cooperate with town).  I see that because that's what you wrote.
ToonyMan: I hesitate to call Ottofar an active-lurker, but yeah, active-lurking.

I'll wait for your answer to my question about zombie urist.
zombie urist: The second post in that list of Persus posts is him laying out a case against Guardsman.  You seem to be stretching a bit to show inaction.

Considering your attack on Persus for low activity is clearly dependent on the LurkerTracker (I noticed the statement that he has only 14 posts, which is not true, but is what the LurkerTracker says), the LurkerTracker isn't working right, and Persus13's posts are known to be being missed by the LurkerTracker, do you still feel comfortable with this attack?  What do you think of Persus's posts after this one, the last Day 1 Persus post LurkerTracker could pick up?

Another question: is your suspicion of NQT still based on the same things as it was before?  If not, how has it changed?

I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.

TheWetSheep: First, can you say why you feel like NQT is hiding behind this content?  Second, what do you think of the rest of his actions?  There's a lot missing from this statement of suspicion.

TheWetSheep

I still feel like you're hiding under all your "helpful content". Compiling reads and speculating on scumteam composition is something anybody can do.

Oh no! I'm coming across as Too Townie!

NQT: Respond to the attack at hand, not something sort of like the attack at hand, please.  To quote the MafiaScum wiki page titled "Too Townie":

Please note that it is NOT a fallacy to claim somebody is trying to "appear" protown (especially if you can also demonstrate how there are likely sinister motives under an otherwise townish sounding post). What this is getting at are posts along the thought of "you look so town, you must be scum".

Granted, there isn't exactly much to respond to in his actual attack.

[Imperial Guardsman]

IG: Why were those magical resources that you needed protected, why couldn't you access them without bloodshed? If you don't know, ask Meph and get back to me.

They were extremely powerful.

[flabort]

I'm "pushing" to reveal to test who's willing to put their own lives on the line to assist in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and find out who's willing to lie about what they may have done, and who's too cowardly to make a risky move. I'm a man of risky moves, Toaster, I prefer puzzles and gambits to waiting out and finding out who flips. Because if we wait, too many flips could be town.

flabort: And what has the inevitable mass unwillingness to massclaim told you about your fellow players?

That most of them are concerned with their own survival over finding and defeating the scum.

Saying that I'm "exposing" town's "hard counters" is a tad... let's say that how you put it sounds riskier than the way I see it. I understand if nobody's willing to reveal for fear that scum might misuse that information, but if every towny claimed, scum would have no choice but to claim, and once the scum claimed, we'd have all the information we'd need to root out every lying scum. So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.

You're making dangerously flawed assumptions.

*You can't safely assume that scum, aside from whoever does the main scum kill/convert/whatever, will lie about their powers in a massclaim.  Most scum powers are town powers as well, and it's often much safer to tell the truth and justify it as pro-town than to tell a lie.  Heck, scum sometimes tries to actively carry out pro-town night actions.

So what about the person with the kill/convert/whatever? They'd HAVE to lie, at least, and eliminating them will mean that we won't have to worry about the mainly anti-town actions. Right?
I guess it would be tougher to catch the other scum if they didn't have to be liars, but if there's a power that could be justified as helping the scum too, we could investigate that further (like, say, a revive. Which could be used to convert, like it has in the past).

*You can't safely assume that you will be able to prove scum is lying if they lie.  This is not CYOM.  We do not have a massive network of investigative roles to all confirm each other, as that is horribly broken.  There are many powers that are quite hard to confirm or deny, particularly if we don't have a tracker or watcher or whatever (or, say, if they die or get converted because the scumteam knows who they are because they claimed).

Touche. I guess words and conversations don't carry the same weight as I thought they might. Why grill them when you can use powers on them?

That wasn't entirely the message I meant to infer. I meant, "I hoped you'd be willing to answer my questions, since you're newer". I did not mean "If you don't answer I'll immediately throw you into my red area of the scumometer", which wouldn't be possible anyways.

See, I don't see either of those messages.  What I see in your post is you telling Hapah that by not telling you his role, he was not cooperating with town (implying that he should tell you his role to properly cooperate with town).  I see that because that's what you wrote.

I wrote a harsher message than I meant to. I had not meant to imply that if he did not answer me he was not town.

Flabort:

Sheep Do you have a night kill? Do you have a preventative role (blocker, doctor, etc)? Are you willing to drop your flavor for me?

Who's interested in finding town nightkill powers? Converters of course! Why are you trying to give a cult the perfect target to convert?

If we can find and kill the converter, assuming it is a converter, before night falls again, this won't be a problem. If it is a converter, and we don't find and kill part of their team today, we're boned anyways. However, I concede that unless everyone else claims, the night kill for town should not claim.

Flabort: What's your next step now that no one is going to claim?

I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?

This is relevant and interesting info. Remind me what it means when a body goes missing? Someone has tried to res Jiokuy? Someone stole Jiokuy's ability?

So I guess I'm asking for a Mass Claim.

I disagree entirely with your brazen rolefishing, but I have considered mass claiming as an option in fighting a cult.

My conclusion is that I think it's too early for a mass claim to be useful. If there were anything useful that could come from N1 results only, it would be somebody getting caught red-handed doing something during the night and somebody would have already claimed it.

Claiming early when there's a cult also lets the cult cherry-pick their targets, and then from there on out the usefulness of a mass claim diminishes since claims can no longer be trusted.

I would disagree with the too early argument, it's only if the claim doesn't work that the cult can cherry pick targets. However, if you share the doubts that everyone else seems to about whether a claim would work, then I guess you're not willing to help make it work to find the leader/killer, so I guess it can't work.

So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.

[Hapah]

PFP

I would disagree with the too early argument, it's only if the claim doesn't work that the cult can cherry pick targets. However, if you share the doubts that everyone else seems to about whether a claim would work, then I guess you're not willing to help make it work to find the leader/killer, so I guess it can't work.

So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.

That's awfully optimistic at best and nearly suicidal at worst, isn't it? What happens if a townie makes a scumslip in that situation?

[Jim Groovester]

I skimmed through the thread another time. I am going to go with Persus13.

I think his vote on Imperial Guardsman in Day 1 was a lazy scum vote. I challenge his votes and reasoning here and a lot of my reasoning for this vote is borrowed from that post. Spazzes are usually pretty safe targets, Persus13 said he did not believe the flavor, which is pretty bogus, and Persus13 either missed or ignored Imperial Guardsman's posts up to his claim and flavor claim, where he drops more than a few hints about his third party wincon. Essentially, I don't believe Persus13 when he said he thought Imperial Guardsman was fakeclaiming when IG oozed sincerity.

Persus13's game has also been pretty unnoteworthy so far.

Toaster, you were voting ToonyMan at the end of the day. What happened to that vote? Surely without a kill to inform your reads your read on ToonyMan would be identical from the end of Day 1 to the start of Day 2, correct?

Dammit all the good pressure points are taken before I get to post.

When you say things like this it makes me think you're scum looking for ways to look town rather than town trying to scumhunt.

Jim: Why are you so sure there's a cult?

Because no N1 kill + starting SK. If you're going to tell me there is no cult, I will first ask you how you know, and then I will be happy.

Playing against cults is town hard mode so I'd rather there wasn't a cult but I think it's likely that there is one.

I fail to see your reasons for voting me.

And now you're concerned his dubious Sexton claim be taken seriously. I want to hear his clarifications before I take this claim with more than a pinch of salt. We've killed one murderous third party and there's been no night kills so a ghoul is highly improbably. No one's been resurrected, so a town priest raising Jiokuy is out the question, so what else could have moved the body? The only explanation I can think of is if a scum priest raised Jiokuy and the resurrection failed, destroying the body and any kind of scum team can do that.

I'm looking at your explanation here and I don't see a part where you explain why ZU's claim is dubious.

So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have). If nobody claims a protection role, then we'd know someone was probably either lying or it's for sure a convert cult, at which point we'd set up a system of checks to test for culthood.

So you want everybody to claim so you can single out the power roles and do regular scumhunting on them.

But everybody in Supernatural has a power role of some kind. So you'd end up doing regular scumhunting on everybody, which is what we're already doing, except everybody is claimed.

Why don't we just cut out the unnecessary steps and just do regular scumhunting on everybody, without claiming, and this way, everybody is happy?

The mass claim isn't happening, bro.

[zombie urist]

Pfp The body is entirely gone. No one has revived so it could be a ghoul (can eat a body to get an unstoppable kill) or a necromancer (summons a skele to beat ppl  up) or something new.

@Jack If the 2nd post is the only one that has content, you must agree that the other ones I posted are low content. You are stretching a bit to show action. I'll search through his newer ones later, but I don't remember anything much better.

[Imperial Guardsman]

Pfp The body is entirely gone. No one has revived so it could be a ghoul (can eat a body to get an unstoppable kill) or a necromancer (summons a skele to beat ppl  up) or something new.

Both of these make perfect sense, due to both the large possibility of a cult and the lack of a kill night one.

[Jack A T]

flabort: What Jim and Hapah said.  Your strategy has little benefit (narrows things down very little, if at all) (possibility of a cult adds the problem of cultists backing cultists as well), and grilling works without knowing the abilities of the targets of the grilling.  Scum, however, would learn great kill/conversion targets with a massclaim.

So let's say everyone claimed. Two people claim knight, someone claims another revive, and someone claims a night kill but didn't use it. We'd thoroughly question and grill those 4 people. From there, one of them is sure to make a scumslip, so we grill all four of those people on the subject of the slip, and by the end of the day we'd be fairly certain of which of the four is the cult leader (either the convert or the kill, depending on which they have).

And then it turns out the cult leader is the guy in the back who claimed guard and said he blocked someone who later confirmed they were blocked (a cultist), and was supported by a cop claimer who claimed an inno on the cult leader.

@Jack If the 2nd post is the only one that has content, you must agree that the other ones I posted are low content. You are stretching a bit to show action. I'll search through his newer ones later, but I don't remember anything much better.

zombie urist: Good thing I'm not trying to show action.

How exactly is laying out a case not content?

I strongly await your thoughts on post-LurkerTracker Persus13 activity.  I have a feeling the main issues with your attack were technical (LurkerTracker), and want to see your thoughts without technical issues getting in their way.
Alright.  If zombie urist is telling the truth about his claim, we're likely dealing with a second serial killer along with a (very likely) cult.  Interesting.  We'd best focus on the main scumteam, as they're the bigger threat and a possible SK would have an interest in hitting them greater than in hitting town.

[ToonyMan]

PFP (busy day)

@Zombie Urist:

@Zombie Urist:
Can you please give me your impressions of Toaster and Jack AT? (I ask again, and again)

I already answered that when I gave my list of reads and nothing has really changed since then. I noticed both times but I already responded to everything in other posts so I didn't really bother quoting you.

Come on. You could at least copy-paste your reads from before if there's truly no change. What's with the avoidance?

I'm going to claim because I think this information is important and my role isn't very powerful or useful. I am the sexton. Jiokuy's body has gone missing. NQT do you know where it went?

This seems legit. You could still be a Cult Sexton however.


@Notquitethere:

Toony

Notquitethere - In contrast to Jim, posts a five chain "train of thought" spasm that shouldn't happen. Trying to change the lynch an hour before day end is really skirting the line, even if you believe their claim.

I'm not sure what your problem is here: I believed the deadline to be minutes away so I was trying to get the most out of the claim in the while there was still a chance. You can hardly accuse me of being in league with Jiokuy, so what scum incentive would there be from trying to delay his lynch?

If NQT is scum:
1. Jiokuy is his partner and he can divert the lynch onto somebody else to save him.
2. Jiokuy is not his partner (town or a third-party), but NQT has become aware what Jiokuy is because he claimed and/or decided it would be better to switch the lynch onto somebody else who might be more dangerous.

Anybody else could join your vote-switching wagon if they're either your scum partners, or town who have become jumpy because of the last minute changes and are second guessing themselves. Not cool.

Does anyone else have any insight on all this?

The less conversions, the better.


@Jack AT:

I'll wait for your answer to my question about zombie urist.

Toony, was there anything about zombie urist's play that made you specifically think he was scum when you voted him, or was your vote just based on not liking his "usual" playstyle? 

With my target going for replacement I wanted to attack ZU to get some reads from him. It's a toss-up whether he's town or scum and I'd like to get a solid vibe. I voted him on Day 1 near the end of the day so I decided to label it a lynch vote...and then was ignored.