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[Neonivek]

Teach what in school, and what has television programming to do with videogames.

Because media is a reflection of society.

You want the creative developers of videogames to be more diverse. Expose them.

Make these things part of their world and experience.

[Stuebi]

I think Stuebi is against... Forced change. Like passing laws that state you need to include such and such.

Which sounds ridiculous but it has happened... USUALLY though with censorship, but there are a few examples of non-censorship reasons.

And his "things are improving" is more of a "We aren't in such a dire straight that we need to force things with laws"

And the stupidity is basically a: "If people are stupid about what is and isn't discrimatory, what makes you think laws that enforce it will be any more intelligent"... Which... He has a point...

I mean the Film Board and Broadcasting board of America are incompetent and corrupt. I wouldn't want them dictating what is "acceptably diverse".

With added in "If you force people to follow arbitrary rules, they will only add it in arbitrarily." Which is arguable.

"Laws" is going a bit far. I do not think that would be realistic in any scenario anyway. I just wanted to point out that in my eyes, we are allready going in the right direction, albeit slowly. And as you correctly guessed, I dont think arbitary rulesets would improve the situation at all, if not actually make it worse.

[Ogdibus]

If you think companies are stagnating due to risk aversion, then go out and do the research.

Find actual games that included diversity, and find analogous games that didn't, and figure out their sales relationships. Poll random samples of strangers. Put together fake trailers and test them on people.

Then send the findings to companies, assuming they turn out the way you think which they may or may not. If they are in fact stagnating and not doing their own research, then this will be infinitely more persuasive than verbal complaints. And if they are doing research, then they will pat you on the head for your quaint efforts and keep doing whatever their better funded, larger scale research shows is lucrative no matter what anybody says.

We know that they are stagnating based on their own industry research.  You also grossly underestimate verbal complaints.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but their stagnation due to the lack of risks is mostly because of the gameplay.

Not in the stories being told.

It is a separate issue from diversity.

[alexandertnt]

Shoehorned diversity is bad, nobody wants that. The general theme of the last few pages has generally been on how bad, not how few, the depications of minorities have been.
Nobody has said artists are obligated to do anything.
Infinity Ward are not full of dumb people. They know and understand their target audience probably better than they understand themselves. If they decided to have a genuine shot at portraying minorities they could probably do a far better job than you think, they certainly have the resources and the skill.

Did we reach the point where anything BUT minorities and uncommon Protagonists is automatically bad?

We never did. I don't know where this idea came from, but it certainly was not from this discussion, and I can't think of anything else that it could have come from.

This seems to be a commin issue though. People interpret the arguments "the portrayel of minorities is rare and usually sucks" and "white male hetero characters make up such a large majority of video game characters that its hard to relate to, and thus enjoy many video games" as "majorities are bad" somehow. There was a good post from someone a few pages back explaining how they felt threatened by the whole minorities-in-video-games thing, taking it as a personal attack but realising it's not.

Do you WANT that artists and companies shoehorn minorities and uncommong Protagonists into the game because they were pressured, or do you want characters with some actual effort behind them, that got created because the artist had a vision and a great idea behind it?

I have already said this earlier: Deciding that the problem will fix itself and then doing nothing about it won't help anything. We have to keep working for something to change or nothing ever will.

[Neonivek]

Deciding that the problem will fix itself and then doing nothing about it won't help anything.

Now while I know this is true. Why in this case?

[LordSlowpoke]

* LordSlowpoke walks in

siiiiiigh

what is your solution then

this conversation is a whinefest, and i want to hear how you'd solve it instead of another wall o'text telling me shit i already know

so far we had:
1. making it mandatory via legal means
2. leaving it alone (which you're saying will do nothing)
3. magically convince the gaming studios that taking giant risks is a good idea and totally won't make their shareholders kill them
4. basically the same magic convincing except this time you're making the whole gamer populace 120% interested in diversity

[Ogdibus]

The only whining is in the posts like yours.  Most of the posts are people trying to establish an agreement on what the situation is, and determining an effective solution. That is not whining.  It may not be getting far, but it's not an easy subject.

[Neonivek]

In the "Do nothing about it" defense... They did offer a solution.

Sure many people here believe it won't work... but it is a clearly presented solution with a cause and effect that are directly related and makes logical sense within its own universe.

Plus it has its own merits and can be argued for or against.

Heck the only argument against it has been "Well sometimes progress goes backwards", which is true... but it is true no matter what you do... or with people taking it to its extreme that the "do nothing" defense means everyone should stop caring, do nothing if anything comes up, and all talks should stop outright.

I mean, I could see an argument such as comparing old to new games and showing that the increase in diversity is mostly imagined created more from the sheer number of games people buy now... Or showing that many of the changes we had now was only caused by direct action... or saying that the current speed of change is just not enough and presenting a superior solution.

I mean.. My solution is that we should be working culture side, not creator side. In that we should continue to talk about, create discussions, and ask for diversity in our videogames. We should teach people about diversity and outreach. But I have yet to actually present it as a solution.

I mean say what you will, they have presented a solution.

[alexandertnt]

Deciding that the problem will fix itself and then doing nothing about it won't help anything.

Now while I know this is true. Why in this case?

It sounded like (though may not have been, I may have been too quick) "leave artists alone, the problem will solve itself" or "complaining makes it worse".

Calling the conversation "a whinefest" is as useful as the "something-something-Tumblr" comments that usually plague discussions like these, and is the sort of dismissive and trivialising behaviour talked about earlier. I certainly learnt a few things from this thread, and I think a few other people have too.

what is your solution then

Continue to discuss and "whine", so that perhaps just maby, people might sympathise, and companies might get a better idea of what people want.

In the "Do nothing about it" defense... They did offer a solution.

The solution was "If people want it, it will happen". Which only works if people actualy want it, a good reason to keep the discussion going and, well, "do something" to make people care.

What people buy, and thus what companies produce, is heavily based on society. See, for example how different media produced for other cultures can end up being. This is the reason why discussions like these often involve discussions on society, and what can be done to make people a bit more sensitive to issues like this.

The "Do nothing about it" "solution" probably causes more harm than good, as it causes people to act like the problem has "already been solved" (rather than, according to the idea of the so-called solution, "will eventually be solved") through the Magic of Capitalism, when it hasn't.

[Neonivek]

The solution was "If people want it, it will happen". Which only works if people actualy want it, a good reason to keep the discussion going and, well, "do something" to make people care.

It is coming from the position that... yeah people do, or are starting to more over time at an acceptable rate.

The "Do nothing about it" "solution" probably causes more harm than good

It is because the natural response of a person is to do nothing.

for example how different media produced for other cultures can end up being

To admit in terms of how we handle diversity... We are probably... the best in the world.

Oddly enough.  (Yes I am including Japan...)

Though we shouldn't hold ourselves to the standards of other countries.

[Stuebi]

-snip-

I was specifically pointing at the two examples with Far Cry and Pupeteer, as two cases where I think people went overboard. I did not try accuse anyone on here of doing any of that stuff.

Also, I have to admit Infinity Ward may be a bad example Storywise. It's their Gameplay that moves forward like a Glacier back in the Ice Age. A better example for milking stereotypes in story and protagonist would probably be Uncharted or something simliar.

And I dont really know where you want to go with that last sentence, just like so many others. What exactly do you define "as working for change"? People are allready voicing their concerns when it comes to this stuff, which is allready pretty evident when a discussion like this can span over 10 pages. It gets discussed in stuff like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, Nintendo got called out for in their games, heck, sites like IGN have specific Reviewers who tend to specifically harping on stuff like this. Even people who dont care about diversity usually call out bad characters (even tough for different reasons). I didnt say they should stop doing that. As far as I'm concerned they could parade around on bandwagons. I just said, that the current progress is enough for me, and I think we are ALLREADY moving forward in the regard.

But "working for change" sounds a tad too serious, considering the subject matter here. Apart from Discussion and suggestion, there is not much more mere mortals Like you and I could do. it's allready happening, and it's changing for the better. *shrug* And I dont care enough about diversity to start a Union. 

[alexandertnt]

The word "work" is a bit overkill, yeah. I probably should as said something simple like "do something", to contrast "doing nothing".

I just have this peeve when people point to some form of improvement as proof we don't have to do anything anymore and we can just let the problem fix itself, which is very common in discussions like these. Though I admit, thats not what you said.

[Stuebi]

The word "work" is a bit overkill, yeah. I probably should as said something simple like "do something", to contrast "doing nothing".

I just have this peeve when people point to some form of improvement as proof we don't have to do anything anymore and we can just let the problem fix itself, which is very common in discussions like these. Though I admit, thats not what you said.

I get what you're saying. It's very easy to lay back, especially if the problem doesnt concert you directly. And diversity, innovation and the definition of what's "Fun" in Games is very subjective. I know quite a lot of people who do not give a flying shite about who they're playing as, much less what they represent. And quite a few others simply dont care about diversity at all, and are content with playing the straight, white muscular man or the petite female with large breasts. Im pretty sure a lot of people do not even consider this a criteria of quality at all.

I myself tend to overlook it sometimes. It's most glaring when it's done bad. I remember stuff like Other M very well, while I struggle to remember some good examples of a diverse cast or odd Choice for a protagonist.

[nenjin]

For the record, I don't think anyone is saying "Do nothing." I think the message is "Keep doing what you been doing, because it seems to be working."