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[Neonivek]

What about Squall's several mind rapes as well as the forced memory wide caused by his use as a weapon, or when he gets run through and is pretty much considered dead for a bit?

I didn't pick those examples because something mildly bad happened to them... but because they all went through traumatic events that DIRRECTLY affect them (and not tangentially either... such as having their parents killed, seeing their killer, and freeking out)

[Vector]

.

[Neonivek]

Squall's... mind rapes? I don't actually remember 'em ._. Think I need to replay FFVIII.

To admit I think I exaggerated. There were a few instances where characters used mind powers to stop him and they seemed to not be very pleasant for squall.

But being run through, used as a weapon, and essentially mind wiped... did occur.

Especially since being Run Through is maiming.

what I'm talking about is: Maiming (includes loss of voice), rape, torture (physical and emotional, so abuse counts as well), forcibly making vulnerable (Examples: MGS4, Other M), PCs being killed in cutscenes (suicide counts).

All the Metal Gear games have had this oddly enough.

Let me see... Link to the Past had that to Link as well, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time. Heck Monkey Island 2 had this.

I don't think it is as uncommon as you think (I am using pretty mainstream examples and choosing ones off the top of my head. I literally could make a list)

I mean sure... it likely won't happen in Grand Theft Auto...

I know what you are thinking of, you are just using the wrong words to convey it.

[Vector]

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[10ebbor10]

You have 1000 male protagonists, of which 10 get the personal violation treatment

I can only comment on male characters (since I have no comment or opinion on female protagonists)

But it is no where near 1000 male protagonists of which only 10 have anything bad directly happen to them.

It would be the equivalent of me saying that for every 1000 male protagonists in movies, only 10 don't use guns.

Arbitrary example

ar·bi·trary adjective \ˈär-bə-ˌtrer-ē, -ˌtre-rē\ 
: not planned or chosen for a particular reason : not based on reason or evidence

I was just explaining the notion of relatively rare.

[Sappho]

It's not at all a question of "it doesn't happen to male characters." It's a question of "it happens to female characters way too often." As in, a female character has a very high chance of having some sort of personal trauma, such as Vector has described. Does it happen to male characters? Sure. Is it rare? Maybe not quite "rare." But as 10ebbor10 said, a female character is far more likely to have this kind of trauma than a male one. If it happens to 10% of female characters and 10% of male characters, I'm totally cool with that. If it happens to 1% of male characters and 50% of female characters, that's an issue. And the current situation is far closer to the latter description, and that's what we have an issue with.

As to the type of personal trauma, think of it this way. Yes, almost all characters have some sort of unpleasant shit to work through. In the case of male characters, though, most of the time (not all, but most), the traumatic events are things that happen around them and directly affect them. My family was killed, my town was destroyed, I lost someone, I lost something. Sometimes it's something that physically happens to the character, but that's not the most common way.

In the case of female characters, it's the other way around. Not "my family was killed" or "my town was destroyed," but more often "someone tried to rape me," "someone abused me," in some way the character was *personally* violated. This happens so much in the media (not just games) that it subconsciously reinforces the idea that it is normal for women to be personally violated. This idea is far too widespread. It lives in the subconscious minds of game developers as much as anyone else, so when they say "okay, why is this girl out to murder all the bad guys?" the first answer that pops into their head is more likely to be "because the leader of the bad guys tried to rape her" rather than "because they are bad guys and she wants to rid the world of them."

[Neonivek]

Meh, if you know what I'm getting at and I'm just using the wrong words, please tell me what the right ones are. I honestly just want the point out on paper, not to fight over stuff that's not true.

I actually can't.

I can only comment on males.

I was just explaining the notion of relatively rare.

Ahhh ok. Thanks for explaining that.

I honestly thought people were saying that only 1% of all male protagonists have direct confrontational trauma occur to them for a second there.

[Stuebi]

An artist has absolutely no obligation to anyone, Companies may have an obligation to the people they owe money to once the Game is out. The approach of demanding diversity to be shoehorned into every project that gets announced is stupid, and expecting Triple A Companies to uphold some form of morale standard is simply naive.

The problem is, that most if not all big companies have a horrible tendency to recycle stuff. In most cases, we are dealing with people who do not have (or dont care about) a deeper understanding of their target audience, or gaming in general. A Company like Infinity Ward does not think about the games and ideas missing in the industry, it's simply thinking about the existing stuff that made money and how to repeat that success effiecently.

To use a somewhat stupid analogy, if Infinity Ward has an Apple Orchard, and those apples sell well. Why should it also offer pears or even bananas? IW knows that the people like and buy apples, so why take a risk?

Now, personally I agree that this is bad. More diversity means more choice, more competition and would potentially result in higher quality of the games we get, or at least, thats what I think would be the case. I do think it has gotten better in the past years, with the rise of Indie-Development, Early Access and a somewhat growing community of games with a greater focus on art and relaying a message. There is still much room for improvement, but I think any change in this regard will only happen in baby steps. And I'm actually glad that it goes that way.

It may paint me as a bad person, but I often find myself having difficulties relating to people who cry foul on diversity issues or related topics. The recent thing with Far Cry 4's cover being labeled as racist is a great example. people are so fucking thrilled to complain about this stuff, that they are starting to do so even when they lack any sort of context. There was this one game, Pupeteer was the name I think. Where people where going down on the artist for making the protagonist a little Boy, instead of a Girl. Why the fuck does it matter? The story is not even REMOTELY about gender. And the FC 4 thing, you have absolutely NO Background on who those morons on the cover are. Did we reach the point where anything BUT minorities and uncommon Protagonists is automatically bad? Do you WANT that artists and companies shoehorn minorities and uncommong Protagonists into the game because they were pressured, or do you want characters with some actual effort behind them, that got created because the artist had a vision and a great idea behind it?

Or, in short. I want diversity to come naturally, on the producers own accord. I dont want some Robot at Infinity Ward to go "Durr, let's make one of the Soldiers mention hes gay at some point, so people stop whining about it.". I want a writer to actually sit down and go "I want to create a *insert sex here* who 's *insert sexuality here*!" I want some actual effort behind characters, and not just some basic idea that never gets beyond the basic concept.

*Unimaginitive Gay Soldier with no other defining traits* is in no form better than *tits on legs that is now youre love interest for no freaking reason* or the other calvacade of steretypes we have buzzing around.

[Neonivek]

Yeah but Stuebi dumb people aren't anything new.

People will always look to deep into something and find racism or sexism where there wasn't any.

and I know there is a lot of stupidity, but the internet amplifies this.

I think what is helping the market is that people are talking about it and asking for more diversity as well as decrying when a game does it badly.

[Ogdibus]

This keeps coming up, no matter how many times it is addressed.  Maybe a copy/paste of the some or all of the answer below is the best response.

Advocating diversity is natural, and has been effective.  Inaction will not result in a natural, positive change.  Nobody is advocating bad writing or shameless pandering.  The goal is diversity in the medium, not in each title.

[Neonivek]

I think Stuebi is against... Forced change. Like passing laws that state you need to include such and such.

Which sounds ridiculous but it has happened... USUALLY though with censorship, but there are a few examples of non-censorship reasons.

And his "things are improving" is more of a "We aren't in such a dire straight that we need to force things with laws"

And the stupidity is basically a: "If people are stupid about what is and isn't discrimatory, what makes you think laws that enforce it will be any more intelligent"... Which... He has a point...

I mean the Film Board and Broadcasting board of America are incompetent and corrupt. I wouldn't want them dictating what is "acceptably diverse".

With added in "If you force people to follow arbitrary rules, they will only add it in arbitrarily." Which is arguable.

[10ebbor10]

Then again, it does seem to be that the only solutions that have been mentioned here are either:

Make it the law.
or
Do nothing, and continue complaining about the issue till it resolves itself.

[Neonivek]

Then again, it does seem to be that the only solutions that have been mentioned here are either:

Make it the law.
or
Do nothing, and continue complaining about the issue till it resolves itself.

Ok here is a solution... How about we...

1) Teach it in school (much better then we currently do)
and
2) get people who know what they are doing, to make television programming especially that which is geared towards children.
-I personally think the "Suzy has two mommies" thing is a LOT less "confusing" then people give credit.

[10ebbor10]

Teach what in school, and what has television programming to do with videogames.

[GavJ]

If you think companies are stagnating due to risk aversion, then go out and do the research.

Find actual games that included diversity, and find analogous games that didn't, and figure out their sales relationships. Poll random samples of strangers. Put together fake trailers and test them on people.

Then send the findings to companies, assuming they turn out the way you think which they may or may not. If they are in fact stagnating and not doing their own research, then this will be infinitely more persuasive than verbal complaints. And if they are doing research, then they will pat you on the head for your quaint efforts and keep doing whatever their better funded, larger scale research shows is lucrative no matter what anybody says.